Auto Spoilers on 787

MS Store version for PC in regular user mode.
I have reported this as a bug following an update (2 or 3 ago - can’t remember), but no fix yet. It was at the same time the reverse thrust stopped working (subsequently fixed).
Previously the default setting for spoilers was “down”. Pressing a programmed button on my yoke would toggle the spoiler lever to “armed”. On touch down and activating reverse thrust, the spoilers would engage fully.
Currently, the default setting when loading a flight is to the “armed” position, yet on landing, the spoilers do not come up.
Does anyone else experience this and if not, how have you programmed your controller/yoke?
Thx.
Tim

Check your spoilers binding. If you have any control set to the Spoilers Axis, it will always “override” the spoiler position with whatever your control position is sitting at. This includes auto-spoilers.

My suggestion is to check all your spoilers bindings in “all” of your connected hardware (keyboard, mouse, gamepad, yoke, throttle quadrant, etc). If you see spoilers binding on a hardware that you’re not using, remove it. Ideally, you should only have 1 hardware bound to one command. This is to ensure you don’t have conflicting inputs coming from other hardware.

Additionally, you can also not use the spoilers axis. And instead use digital commands of Retract and Extend Spoilers as a button (whether physical or virtual buttons) This way, without a Spoilers axis control to override, the auto-spoiler can deploy freely.

Shouldn’t having the axis bound and the toggle arm bound work correctly, though?

In other words, what you are saying about having the axis bound interfering with the armed spoilers deploying is what is going on in the sim, but this is a bug, right?

These should work when both bound?

Btw, the spoilers shouldn‘t wait to deploy with reverse thrust but right at touchdown. They are there to ensure that you don‘t fly anymore and stick to the ground. If that logic is wrong you can report that too ^^

I noticed this aswell!

I also noticed that the 787 wants to bank left on take off roll and and upon landing.

I haven’t changed any settings and now need to manually deploy my speed break aswell. Be interested to know what the fix is.

Well the sim is designed to accept any valid input from your hardware simulatenously. It’s always been like this to be honest. I experienced the same issue a year ago when I bought my spoilers hardware. So if it “should” work when both axis and toggle autospoiler bound is a lot more complex than you’d think.

I don’t think it’s a bug because when I tried to understand how the controls work, it actually makes sense (in a way). So it’s actually working as designed, even though I think It’s more like a bad design in the first place than a bug. But then again, I really don’t have a better idea.

The fact is, you still don’t want to lose manual control over your spoilers. So having a logic to ignore spoilers axis would actually makes things worse. And the fact that Boeing’s way to arm autospoilers and Airbus’ way is also completely different from each other, so that’s another layer of complexity on how to standardise the “correct” way to arm autospoilers while not being conflicted by the manual spoilers axis.

One way I can think of is to add an additional logic in the controls saying “if the autospoiler is armed, ignore every spoiler axis input”. This should make the autospoiler work. But the drawback is as soon as you arm the autospoiler, you will never be able to manually deploy the spoilers because the sim would be ignoring your spoiler axis input at this stage. You have to manually disengage the autospoiler first to regain manual spoiler control, which I’m pretty sure it’s an unrealistic behaviour.

So for me, when I took all of these analysis into account, my solution above is the best workaround that I can think of to get both functionality. I can manually deploy and retract spoilers, and I can arm the autospoilers without it being overridden by the spoilers axis.

Whether you want to try that and accept it as a workaround so that you can continue flying without issues like I do… well that’s up to you.

Yeah, this is frustrating.

I’d had been using the spoilers as you have described — a button for toggle arm, and a button for toggle fully deployed/retracted.

Then I got the Thrustmaster TCA Boeing Yoke Pack and an additional throttle quadrant. Now I have an actual spoilers axis lever.

I got this just as SU8 beta hit and I’d immediately found the spoilers “broken” in the 747 and wrote it up as a bug.

Then I stumbled upon this thread last night.

It would seem that there could be some logic in the code that would allow for both. Given that the arming of the spoilers in the aircraft requires the lever to be pushed down or up depending on Boeing/Airbus design, it would stand to reason that if the spoilers were armed and the sim saw an input on the axis, it would automatically disarm them and move the spoilers to the specified point in the axis’ travel. Also, just like in the real aircraft, the ability to arm them would require the axis to be pushed fully to the retracted position and then the toggle arm would function, otherwise toggle arm wouldn’t do anything.

Of course, this would require Asobo to rework the logic between these controls and, like so many things, seems like an impossible ask of them. I am forever so dejected when I run into situations like this in the sim, because I know the chances of them being fixed are so incredibly low.

Gah, what a drag.

Hang on. After writing what I wrote, I just tested this on the stock Airbus and it works as it should.

I have “Toggle Arm Spoilers” bound to a button on my throttle quadrant. I’ve got “Spoiler Axis” bound to a lever on my throttle quadrant.

I press the toggle button and see the lever move up and down, arming and disarming. I can move the axis with the spoilers armed and they will disarm and then the lever moves through its range. The logic exists exactly as suggested in my previous post. If I’ve got the spoiler axis moved anywhere in the deployed range, the toggle armed spoilers button ceases to function. It will only function when the axis is in the fully retraced position, as it should.

I just took off, circled and landed with the spoilers armed and they deployed upon landing, as they should.

The issue, as the OP brought up, seems to be with the Boeing aircraft. I don’t have the 787, so I can’t test it, but I do have the 747 and it has the same issue as the OP. The Boeing aircraft should work just as the Airbus do. The only difference between them is the Airbus is a lift the lever to arm and the Boeing is a push down the lever to arm, but the overall action is the same for both makes of aircraft.

EDIT: I connected my Boeing yoke setup to my Xbox, which is running the current retail release and not the beta. I have the same success here with “Toggle Arm Spoilers” and the “Spoiler Axis” bindings — they behave and deploy as they should. I’ve been waffling over the Premium Deluxe upgrade and I’m eyeballing it again to be able to test all this on the 787. I will say that the SU8 Beta release notes point out that Asobo did some work to the spoilers on the 747 & 787. Again, since I do not have the 787, I don’t know what issue(s) exist with it in the retail release. I do know I was surprised to see they “fixed” the 747’s spoilers since they were not broken in the first place. Unfortunately, their “fix” in SU8 Beta has definitely broken them.

Thank you all for your thoughts.
What is perplexing, is the default positioning of the spoiler lever when I load up the B787 is down and when I toggled “armed” it moves to the armed position. I cannot toggle it back to the unarmed position unless I “grab it” with my mouse. Nevertheless, when I land (with or without reverse thrust) the spoilers do not engage unless I hit the toggle again. I have tried this with and without using the “axis” option.
Btw NixonRedgrave, do you not have the 787 as an inlcuded aircraft with the Xbox version? It came as part of the Delux PC version.

No, because I only have the base version, hence my thoughts on upgrading.

Have you the will to try the beta? I’d like to hear about what has been changed with the 787’s spoilers and if your issues go away.

Maybe I’ll just pull the trigger on the Premium Deluxe upgrade…

Ok, I bought the Premium Deluxe upgrade and have the 787 and tested it.

It works as expected, just like the Airbus A320neo and Boeing 747-8 — it arms, the lever animates correctly, and it deploys upon landing when armed.

So, going back to your original issue…

In the current retail version (1.22.2.0), when I load into the cockpit, I see the spoilers are not armed, and are in the fully retracted position. Of course, I have my Spoilers axis pushed fully forward, so it also matches the cockpit lever’s position. Pressing the button I have mapped to “Toggle Arm Spoilers” causes the cockpit lever to move fully forward to the armed position. Pressing it again, returns it to the unarmed position. As stated above, they automatically deploy when armed upon landing.

I am definitely not seeing what you’re seeing for behavior.

As an aside, since both the 747 and the 787 work correctly in 1.22.2.0, why on earth has Asobo “fixed” them in the SU8 Beta, which broke the 747. I’m about to test the 787 in the beta right now.

(Awesome aircraft, the 787!)

EDIT: The 787 spoiler lever is different in the beta. Upon entering the cockpit, the lever is in the armed position. Pressing the Toggle Arm Spoilers button toggles it off. Moving the Spoiler Axis axis lever moves the lever correctly towards fully deployed, however when moving the axis lever back to fully retracted, it keeps going past the retracted point and into the Armed detent. I don’t know if this new change is intended to mimic the actual lever’s behavior, such that if you are using “Spoiler Axis” you’re meant to just stop short of the fully forward position to set the lever in the unarmed detent and push it fully forward to arm it. Regardless, they do not automatically deploy in the beta.

Are you using the beta, because your OP issue seems like what I am seeing in the beta, but not in retail.

Yeah, this could work if your bindings are separate and the spoiler lever is completely stationary without any movement at all. But if you get any small vibration that made the spoilers move even slightly, it will start to feed into the sim with the axis position.

The way that I bind my autospoilers was to actually arm/disarm the autospoilers using the spoiler lever itself. Like a Boeing, you arm your autospoiler by pulling the spoiler lever back one position, and disarm by pushing it back to retract position.

This won’t work because when you assign the lever to an axis, and you pull the lever to “arm” the autospoiler, the axis position will always override. This is easily noticeable because when I look at the wings, and I pull the lever to the arm position, the spoilers actually open a little bit (about 25%) and it stays.

So my method of actually removing the spoilers axis is so that I can arm/disarm or retract and deploy spoilers in the exact same way as using Boeing. Where I can use the same spoiler lever to do all of them. Not to arm/disarm with a separate button which is not representative of the behaviour in the real aircraft.

One other way that they can do to fix this (if it hasn’t already) is to introduce a deadzone at the end. I know there’s a Extreme Deadzone, but I haven’t had a try if this works yet. The idea of this extreme deadzone is so that the sim can “ignore” the inputs of the spoiler axis for the first 25%, so we can freely arm/disarm without the spoilers axis being triggered to override it. Only when we move it passed the arm position, the spoilers axis start feeding into the sim.

I’ve got some more data here.

First, my apologies are due. I’m not a 747 nor a 787 pilot. As such, I’ve been flying the 747 since I got the sim last fall thinking the way the spoilers lever operated in the sim is how it operates in the aircraft. The same can be said for the 787, which, until today, I’d never flown in the sim.

I’m apologizing for any confusion sown.

That said. I looked, carefully, at the center console of the 787. The markings for the spoilers lever are front-to-back:
• Down
• Armed
• Up

Note that when the lever is fully forward that is the “Down” position and when it’s about 2 cm back, it’s “Armed”.

In the retail version it is “wired” wrong in that in the “Down” position they are armed and the “Armed” position they are simply down. When I enter the cockpit, they are in the “Armed” position, which is actually not armed due to how they are wired wrong.

In the beta, this has been reversed, so they behave as they are labeled — “Down” is down, “Armed” is armed. When they are in the “Armed” position in the beta, they do deploy. When you enter the cockpit in the beta version they are in the “Down” position and are, indeed, down.

The 747 is another matter entirely.

What’s interesting is the beta has the 787 spoilers lever now having a full range of motion via the “Spoilers Axis” bind. Having a separate “Toggle Arm Spoilers” isn’t necessary any longer.

So you mean as long as your spoiler lever travel about 20% from the retracted position, it will automatically arm the autospoiler? That would be really good, then.

P.S I actually use the “Set AutoSpoilers arming” on my binding and not the Toggle. Toggle is for buttons that you press to activate and press again to deactivate. But if you want to use a persistent virtual button that continuously “pressed” whenever you position the spoilers over it. Then it needs to be bound to “Set” command, otherwise binding it to “Toggle” will make it arm/disarm back and forth many times a second.

Yes. If I just pull the lever back a bit from its fully forward position on my Boeing throttle quadrant, it goes into the Armed position.

In fact, it seems that both the 747 and 787 have had their “Armed” and “Down” positions reversed since launch.

The beta reverses their functions. Since I only just got the 787 today, I’d not noted the markings on the center console. If you fly the 787 in the retail release, the Armed position is actually the Down position on the console and vice versa.

When I flew both these planes in the beta, I thought Asobo broke the automated deployment of the spoilers, because they didn’t deploy. Well, that is because in the beta, the position of the lever is now correctly setup, but since I’ve only known it in the broken way, I’d been placing it in “unarmed” thinking it was armed.

In short, in the 787 fully forward is Down, back about 2 cm is Armed. In the 747, fully forward and down in the detent is Down and fully forward and up in the detent is Armed. They actually are meant to be similar to the Airbus, in a sense, but have been wrong all along. The 747 lever is not animating correctly in the beta, however

Whew.

Again, thank you both for your contribution to this issue. It is great to have enthusiasts that put thought into their contribution.
I did recheck my control bindings and I have been using “Set Auto Spoilers Arming” and also using “Spoiler Axis”.
With trying variations of your suggestions, I still do not get the spoilers to automatically engage on touchdown. What I do as an alternative is to use another button for “Toggle Spoilers” and this works, but it is more of a manual process (not automatic).
While it is not a critical issue, I am hoping that Update 8 will resolve the anomaly.
Tim (from Canada)