[FIXED 1.13.17.0] World Update 3 has broken flight dynamics, exhibit A

The floating has made this totally unplayable in my case. What’s the point of a flight sim if you can’t properly simulate a landing?
+1 reason to not force updates on people. Wish I could just revert while it gets sorted.

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There is no benefit doing this, even in an emergency situation. Landing flaps create more drag than lift, you’ll need the drag in the situation you are describing to lose the energy. There is not a single real world situation I can think off where a lower flap setting will result in a shorter landing distance. The only situation it would be useful to retract flaps is AFTER touchdown to have more weight on the wheels and more effective braking since wheel brakes are far more effective than aerodynamic drag (depending on runway contamination).

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Well maybe crosswind, that is probably the exception.

You mean raising flaps before or after touchdown? Flying the approach with a lower flap setting might be beneficial as there might be a higher crosswind limit depending on the aircraft type and it makes the aircraft easier to control but it won’t reduce the overall landing distance. Raising the flaps after landing might help to put the weight firmly on the wheels but on some aircraft types it might prevent spoiler deployment, and those are probably more efficient dumping the lift than raising the flaps. Anyway in commercial aviation we don’t use this technique, its more GA thing I guess.

It just might have benefit in a certain simulator, if for some reason, the flap lift increment was, say, double what it should be . Just a hypothetical of course.

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The flow actually is turbulent over a decent portion of the wing, and the extra energy added by that turbulence helps keep the boundary layer attached. To achieve truly laminar flow over the entire wing surface is not easy as grit (think insects and dirt) as well as bumps and dings will disrupt that laminar flow even if you started with a perfectly smooth surface. At least one commercial business jet with laminar flow across a decent portion of the upper surface encountered such problems.

After yesterday’s flight with the Robin at short and medium fields at 0ft elevation in ISA conditions, it appears to me that the new ground effect reduces the induced drag a bit too much, consequently a bit more/longer cushioning effect than expected.

My recommendation is to increase the induced drag parameters for the current ground effect with 15% and then see where we are.

Also, regarding some comments about the effects of landing aircraft, I suspect that individual parameters for each aircraft should be checked seperately, since it appears that not all aircraft are responding equally relative to the new ground effect. Cessna 150 and Robin feel close to me, but not perfect, in ground effect. Obviously more difference is noticable in the Robin since it is a low wing.

Microsoft / Asobo Ekranoplan Simulator 2020

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Full flaps with the TBM, A320, and King Air. When full flaps enacted the plane goes into a steep climb even with full downward force on the yoke. Once it comes out of the steep climb and stall and one gains control again, it will only descend very slowly. No matter how hard you force the nose down and slow the aircraft. This has only become an issue since the last update.

Something must be wrong with your controls or mappings, or the way you’re controlling the plane.

I just did a couple of flights with the A320, and had 0 issues landing with full flaps.

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I haven’t experienced the issue with the A320, but it’s definitely a problem in the King Air. Although landing at all in the King Air is pretty much impossible with the new update.

Just made my first checkflight after that update and no issues with flaps on the TBM. It´s correct that you get a pitch up moment when you drive the flaps to full down, but it´s easy controllable and far away from full yoke deflection without a reaction.

But i guess they made a huge improvment in flight physics. The TBM isn´t that nervous as it was before.
Flown 2 VFR Pattern without AP and normaly the Plane is a little fluttery on the pitch axis during manual fly. This is gone as well as fluttery yaw during startroll
Don´t know if it´s more realistics now, but i like it.

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If they do, then they’re not sims. Sims model the planes so you can either be an E-fighter or a turnfighter, or in a few cases both to some degree. These types are most distinct in WW2, especially in its latter years, less so before and especially less thereafter when it became “wish 'em dead”.

I’ve fought many duels Spit IX vs FW-190a8, flying both planes, and have won most of them because, in the sims I was flying back then, they were quite different and I was well versed in both. To make it fair, you spot the FW a 2000’ altitude advantage, which makes both participants essentially co-E for maneuvering purposes, and then game on. It’s up to the FW driver not to blow his E and up to the Spit driver not to get roped. If both fly their planes correctly, it’ll end in a draw as the FW dives away and disengages. Otherwise, victory goes to the pilot who best manages his E.

Think harder then :slight_smile: Why is stall speed in any configuration lower when you have flaps down? Because the flaps are giving you lift your airspeed doesn’t deserve by itself. And lift reduces the ground pressure of the tires, and thus decreases braking effectiveness. So, say you’re landing all iced up and need the flaps to not die before the wheels hit, but you have to come in faster than normal because your ice decreases your lift. And it’s a really short field with ice on the runway. Pull in the flaps as you touch down to STAY down and put weight on the wheels, so the brakes will stop you before you skid off the far end.

The same post you have quoted from I’m saying exactly the same one sentence after:

I’m not sure if I read one of your posts incorrectly, I thought you were writing about retracting the flaps during the flare (before touchdown) and that this has applications in the real world in case of emergency. About raising the flaps before touchdown, I don’t see any benefit (in real life, not talking about the hideous MSFS flight model), when coming in hot and high as in one of your examples you need the drag to lose the energy, raising the flaps will only lengten the landing distance in that case. After touchdown, as I already said before the braking distance might reduce as the wheel brakes become more effective although on some aircraft it might cause complications as spoilers might not deploy. But this is generally a GA procedure. I have never used or seen this procedure in commercial aviation. If you need to raise the flaps immediately upon touchdown in order to stop in time you are landing somewhere you shouldn’t :joy:.

Regarding your icing example, if you are really that iced-up I would definitely not select any flaps, while still in icing conditions ice accretion will increase and the increase of downwash angle from the wings onto a contaminated stabilizer might cause a tailplane stall. On most types I have flown a reduced flap landing must be performed. If the field is that short the attempt to land should be aborted and diversion initiated, especially if there is ice on the runway = maybe braking action poor which means its not adviceable or even allowed to use that runway. Probably raising the flaps to increase braking effectiveness is not gonna have much effect on an ice covered runway anyway. If you can’t divert and somehow have to land, going off at the end of the runway is better than stalling the tailplane and going into the ground nose first.

Of course multiple things have gone wrong here before even ending up in a situation like this, ending up in icing conditions in an aircraft not suitably equipped is the first. Wasn’t this forecasted? If accidentaly ending up in icing conditions why didn’t you escape? Descend below freezing level, turn back, divert? Hasn’t the airport reported the runway conditions before departure? With proper flight preparation the chances of ending up in the described situation are remote.

“Superior pilots use their superior judgement to prevent ending up in situations in which they might need to use their superior skills”

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especialy in these times, when real pilots are grounded , should be easy to hire few pilots for planes testing,
as mentioned above is broken, i testet a320, and tbm, flaring does nothing, you need to push the aircraft down,will try to reinstall it from content manager,

The A320 is doing the same thing, we are taking off at 80kts…

I was, in the context of working around the excessive ground effect float now present in the Caravan (at least) since this week’s patch. The float is caused by excessive lift. Reducing flaps reduces lift so the plane will settle as expected (although with a strong nose-down tendency you must be ready for).

I also mentioned that there was real-world precedent for retracting flaps in the flare and/or at touch down, and gave the example of landing a heavily iced plane on a short, icy strip. This is not a situation I recommend anybody get into voluntarily but it can happen and, when it does, brakes work best with the least lift. So, if you had flaps down for the landing, pull them in immediately so the brakes will be at their best. Brakes (and reverse thrust, if available) slow you down more than aerodynamic drag at speeds too low to fly at.

All good advice for GA folks out on a lark but suppose your (meager, hours-building) paycheck requires you to land this load right here right now, come Hell or high water (or ice)? Then you have to improvise. Flaps on final depends on icing on final but suppose that’s OK and your ice accrued a while back and it’s too cold lower down for it go away. You know the kind, the freezing rain that runs back behind the boots before sticking, so the boots have no effect on it. So, no matter where you go, you’ll still have this anchor around your neck.

Sure, starting with signing on with this company. Same as with deciding to be an over-the-road trucker. It gets to be winter in certain parts and you still have to get the load through it, come Hell, high water, or ice. So there you are. Deal with it. That’s what they pay you for. You have a commercial license and all, so you’re a pro at this sort of thing. It says so on your license.

But all that aside, my point was that the excessive ground effect floatiness can be allayed by reducing flaps at touch-down and/or in the flare. As I took pains to point out, this is broken and not ideal… However, it works, so fly the airplane.

We are, but through gritted teeth I feel.

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I fly in icing conditions almost daily (on a suitably equipped aircraft), the severe icing conditions you are describing don’t happen that often, of course the severity of icing also depends on the size and type of aircraft. If this would happen, declaring emergency and diversion would definitely be appropriate. On both aircraft I’m rated on this triggers a reduced flap landing to prevent ice induced tailplane stall. The flap discussion is therefore not all that relevant in this specific situation. Still I don’t agree there is any suitable situation to retract flaps during the flare (before touchdown), you’ll end up stalling out of the air, not anticipating the pitch moment correctly plowing the nose gear into the ground or at high speed end up bleeding of the speed with lower drag, extending the flare and landing distance.

This is not a professional pilot speaking, this is the cowboy approach and it is this kind of mentality that causes accidents. Nobody pays you to fly in severe icing conditions and then land on a short icy runway shorter than the landing distance required under those conditions whereby flaps need to be raised upon touchdown in order to stop before the runway ends. Gypsy style.

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That Aberdeen incident is worrying. Late is better than dead.

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