Flight Training/Basic Handling/Attitude(Pitch) lesson fails to detect requested flight attitudes changes when using Brunner CLS-E control loading yoke

Bug Reporting Hub Hardware & Peripherals
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Are you using Developer Mode or made changes in it?

YES, just to show FPS

Have you disabled/removed all your mods and addons? If the issue still occurs with no mods and add-ons, please continue to report your issue. If not, please move this post to the Community Support section.

Yes, I’ve tried with all my addons (just installed via in-app marketplace) except for the Brunner CLS2SIM integration disabled.

Brief description of the issue:

I fly with a Brunner CLS-E Yoke and pedals. These feature control loading feature where the in flight center for the yoke is dynamic based compared to a yoke with a fixed detent in the centered position. Flying normally in the sim works great, however during the training lessons the instructor prompts you to make specific flight attitude changes. When placing, for example, the top or bottom attitude line on the horizon as requested in the “Attitude(Pitch)” lesson it will fail to capture that this has attitude has been attained. This results in failing the lesson even if the actions are performed exactly as requested. This issue makes using the flight training lessons to introduce new people to the simulator/flying unusable. As a certificated pilot IRL, I’m unable to pass this lesson by following the instructor prompts, which is very frustrating.

Provide Screenshot(s)/video(s) of the issue encountered:

Microsoft Flight Simulator 2023.11.06 - 08.50.27.01.mp4

Detailed steps to reproduce the issue encountered:

Install FS2020, install CLS2SIM, Start CLS2SIM, Launch FS2020, CLS2SIM should auto connect to the sim, Fly the Basic Handling - Attitude(Pitch) lesson.

PC specs and/or peripheral set up if relevant:

PC specs (RTX 3090, 32GB RAM, i9-12900K) irrelevan. Brunner CLS-E yoke/pedals. SaiTek Cessna trim wheel. I do also have a home made TPM that interfaces to the SIM with VJoySerialFeeder (GitHub - Cleric-K/vJoySerialFeeder: Feed Virtual Joystick driver with data from a serial port) These controls work perfectly however maybe the hardware throttle position/power setting is at play here in some way.

Build Version # when you first started experiencing this issue:

I believe this has been occurring since the original release of FS2020 that I installed at launch.

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Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

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This was moved to Bugs->Hardware subsection.

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Has MS / Asobo ever even hinted that MSFS 2020 supports the Brunner CLS-E Yoke and pedals ?

ie How can it be a BUG, when an unsupported product does not work with MSFS.

If Brunner is selling their hardware as “MSFS Compatible”, then maybe its Brunner one should report “Bugs” to, when their hardware does not run with MSFS 2020.

Also, if using the Brunner with MSFS requires additional MSFS addon software (ie XPforce), then does the developer of XP force include support for the Brunner.

The reason why I do not have a Brunner

#1 - Unclear support and performance with MSFS
#2 - Price

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In the Brighter side, it looks as if some form of Force Feedback support is coming to 2020 / 2024, judging by some of the new parameters cropping up in .cfg files of Std Asobo Planes, that seem to refer to Force Feedback parameters.

My hope would be that Brunner partner with MS/Asobo, and that that ends up with the Brunner support being native, and included in MSFS going forward, with default profiles included for both the Brunner Yoke & Pedals.

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have you tried the lesson with a Traditional, spring centering Yoke/ Joystick, which is what MSFS , and its lessons, have been designed and tested to work with,

As a IRL certified IFR Pilots, I wonder if you have tried any “On Ground” AP tests, with the Brunner, and have discovered that all is not correctly simulated / working as one would expect from your RL experience.

Is certainly is not, using XPforce and the Microsoft II Force feedback Joystick :woozy_face:

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Has MS / Asobo ever even hinted that MSFS 2020 supports the Brunner CLS-E Yoke and pedals ?

As far as I understand, Brunner claims it works, but they aren’t a hardware partner of MS/Asobo. https://forum.brunner-innovation.swiss/forums/topic/1695/ In my experience this hardware is amazing though, and works very very well using CLS2SIM to relay the control positions to FS2020.

ie How can it be a BUG, when an unsupported product does not work with MSFS.

I logged it as a bug because because it seemed most fitting, but I agree it could be considered a feature/wishlist item if MS/Asobo think this is working as designed. I’m also a software engineer, so I totally get your point here. It looks like someone already moved this to the Hardware category, so it looks like its being categorized better already.

Flying in FS2020 with these controls works very very well though, so in my mind it does “work”, it just seems like the method to capture the requested flight attitudes in the lesson could be improved. Looking at the end of that linked Brunner thread though, i feel like the issues here are likely with how trim works between CLS2SIM and FS2020, so maybe something that just feels realistic right now but isn’t realistic compared to reality of the actual flight control surfaces. If this is the case, maybe FS2024 it is…

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have you tried the lesson with a Traditional, spring centering Yoke/ Joystick, which is what MSFS , and its lessons, have been designed and tested to work with,

I haven’t as I gifted my old Cessna/Saitek controls to an aspiring SIM flyer. Given that no one seems to complain about these lessons not working, I’m just assuming that those controls work perfectly for these lessons.

As a IRL certified IFR Pilots, I wonder if you have tried any “On Ground” AP tests, with the Brunner, and have discovered that all is not correctly simulated / working as one would expect from your RL experience.

I haven’t flown much with the AP in FS2020, as I mostly used it to practice hand flying instrument approaches or just flying around randomly VFR. This is something i could try out, but I’m leaning towards this being a trim representation issue as mentioned above.

On the trim idea, I tried flying that same lesson this AM without touching the throttle and with different trim settings. Due to how the Brunner Yoke picks its center position, my hardware Cessna/Saitek trim wheel position applies when the lesson starts. If I give it a couple turns either way between lesson attempts, it impacts the pitch relative to the horizon that the lesson is looking for on the Level/Climb/Descent attitudes. Knowing this, if I ignore the lines and just pitch VERY SLOWLY to try to capture the pitch that the lesson is looking for (by watching for the green checkbox indicating it has been attained), I’m able to scratch out a B on the lesson. So yeah, that makes me think this is trim representation related.

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