Fundamental design flaw of Xbox - no virtual memory?

In the June 2024 Dev Q&A, Seb described how compared to PC, Xbox has no virtual memory. This was surprising to me - but it explains a lot of the limitations we experience. This seems like a choice with a lot of consequences that should be reconsidered by the decision makers on the Xbox engineering team. I can guess the reason has to do with file system visibility (no visibility on Xbox), and yet:

  • How can there be the OS, games, and other DLC content without SOME file system visibility - after all Xbox tells you how much free space there is?
  • How can Rolling Cache be possible, but not Virtual Memory?
  • Surely Microsoft can figure out virtual memory on their own system while preserving security?

Can we talk about some sentiment Xbox users are feeling about the dynamic LOD change as it relates to black Avionics?

Seb: I’ve seen people say that the changes on Xbox may be due to some new memory system coming from the development that is ongoing on 2024. There was a new memory system that has been ported from 2024 to 2020, but only on PC…

…On PC, there’s also fixed memory, but you have a virtual drive, a virtual memory on the hard drive, and you can swap, which means that most of the time, if you open your task manager, you will see that many software and PC use way more memory than your PC has. And the system just elegantly swaps it out onto the hard drives. We don’t have that on the console. So the only thing we can do when the software uses more memory than we have is to play with load balancing on quality. And if we do this wrong, if memory runs out, the system will just crash. And so previously, on Sim Update 14 and before, The crash rate, which Jorg just showed on [Sim Update] 15, was a lot higher because, well, it happened that the system would run out of memory. And one of the triggers we play with is we switch off glass cockpits because they cost one gigabyte, just the glass cockpits…

… But what also happened on Sim Update 15 is there’s been improvements to traffic. liveries, all sorts of stuff. And this has pretty much eaten away a little bit of the memory that we made. And then there was the GDK, which would give us half a gig, which was a really good news, but unfortunately we couldn’t get it in. So the setting we left in the end was a trade-off, which still significantly reduces crashes…

…And our plan right now is pretty much that the new GDK will solve all of these issues on Xbox Series S. The added half a gig is only on Xbox Series S, not on X. And on X, we don’t think there’s that many problems. So what we pretty much need is on our side, a bit more testing and investigation of the different cases to see if it’s just S or X or both. See if the GDK will solve most of these issues and gather more feedback also to maybe just adjust.

And so, I’m wondering if there are some basic software design strategies that might help find more free memory:

  • When you create a flight in the World Map, by default ALL of the cities, runways, points of interest, fauna, etc, are all ON, and being displayed on the Map. Perhaps these should be OFF by default (or at very least remember use choices from flight to flight) which would reduce the amount of things MSFS is tracking and displaying from the start. If the user turns POI, or grass runways, or heliports on, only then load them.
  • Are those items loaded in the flight even if you turned them off in the World Map? If so, that would be an obvious waste of memory. That’s just an example.
  • How many layers of data are there in scenercy? Base Map, plus POI, layers for World Updates, auto-gen trees and buildings. Can any of those layers be flattened to reduce the overall number of layers and masks? For example, in the Caribbean, there are water masks. Where the water is masked, the underlying Bing data that you don’t see is still there taking up memory - so could it be flattened?
  • And plane specific things, like in the default 787-10, the tablet is only used for take-off calculations. I do turn it off in the hope that it frees up memory - but is it programmed to release the memory used for the tablet when I turn it off? (maybe it should be?) And so on.

Just thoughts, because since SU15, it seems I’m having issues on every flight now, and SU16 with GDK improvements has no date yet.

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A few days ago, Microsoft / Xbox announced a refresh of the Xbox hardware, notably missing any specifications other than storage size. However, many websites which try to follow and predict hardware anticipate the amount of memory will remain unchanged at 16 GB.

I think that would be a mistake to not offer 32 GB, or at least the CHOICE for more at time of purchase, or the ability to install and upgrade RAM on Xbox.

MSFS on Xbox is severly limited because of memory - and it seems unnecessarily short-sighted for a company to offer flagship console that can’t properly accomodate it’s flagship title with at least some room to spare for quality performance of addons from it’s marketplace. The motivation to increase margin and compete with Play Station pricing by limiting RAM, will have a consequential cost of missing out on sales.

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Swapping memory out to disk and back is very slow and generally means a Very Bad Game Experience… That a game-specific device has disabled virtual memory swap space isn’t super surprising, especially since it’s a closed system where to publish a game to it you have to get a special license from the machine vendor and undergo functional testing.

That said, for a few “big” games that 16 GB of shared RAM/VRAM doesn’t go as far as it might, especially in a 4K-rendering world.

Enabling virtual memory would make some games run slow instead of crashing sometimes; I doubt Microsoft will do this.

Adding more actual memory would increase the cost of the machine with zero benefit for most games today. Will Microsoft do this for the next-gen machine? Maybe? But that cost is real and we’ll see. :slight_smile:

I was going by what Seb said in the latest Dev Q & A (linked above) and he spoke about how no virtual memory on Xbox is a specific problem for MSFS, since it is used by MSFS on PC.

The current configuration may be economical for Microsoft - but it imposes a palpable limitation on MSFS. So I’m advocating for more memory options for those willing to pay for it. The headline on their own blog post, “More Choices Than Ever” would be ironic if there is no choice of more memory, in my opinion.

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Yea it’s a bummer they decided to only increase the storage space. I recall Phill Spencer being quoted last year saying that Xbox would not have a mid generation upgrade. Due to how difficult it was to obtain one for the first two years of its life cycle. (Scalpers, no stock, no in store purchases or very few drops.)

I saw a PlayStation 5 social post the other day that the Sony creators have said the “PS5 is coming close to the end its life cycle”. The comments did not go over well, a lot of people again were not able to procure PS5 during the pandemic or the subsequent years after. A lot of the comments were “it spent half its life being unavailable!”

So while some of us would like to see this mid generation upgrade, many would not be as happy about it. I myself am saving for a PC

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