How can we improve the state of discussion on these forums and avoid non-constructive negativity?

Unless a post is criminal in content, it does not break any laws though and while posts that break the forum rules should be sanctioned as such, there is still a lot of valid criticism along the complaints and it should be up to the moderators to decide which fall under the “unconstructive” moniker. I still find the crime analogy off by a few orders of magnitude, but I know it’s an opinion.

That is really all that should be said, because Discussion of Moderation is also against the CoC.

I would never deny anyone their right to respond to a forum post. But even if someone is non-constructive, the reply should be constructive and not a counter attack. Hence, I think non-constructive posts are best ignored if nothing constructive can be said in response :slight_smile:

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It really depends. This is just an example and I wouldn’t consider it an equation to forum complaining, but if I see a kid beating on a senior citizen, and I reasonably believe I have the means to stop it, I’ll restrain the kid AND call the cops.

Moving away from the legal discourse and back into forum-specifics, If I see something to which I have the means to logically respond bringing my experience to the table, I’ll do so. If that something also breaks the rules, I’ll certainly flag it. One does not exclude the other.

By responding, I submit to the same rules I call onto others, mind you.

I haven’t seen many “you’re an idiot” replies to “this flight simulator is ■■■■” post.

Again, those are broad examples, but cases in which I see replies that keep the same tone (or worse) as the offending post are very, very rare.

Actually, it’s a very common rule in most moderated forums, because when people start to discuss moderation, threads are inevitably derailed very, very quickly.

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Folks. Before we cross a point of no return, I’m temporarily closing this topic. Cool down. Relax. Come back with a more positive attitude and we can continue this discussion in a more constructive, mature manner.

Additionally, please read the Code of Conduct during this time. https://forums.flightsimulator.com/faq

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This topic was automatically opened after 3 hours.

How can we improve the state of discussion on these forums and avoid non-constructive negativity? Perhaps by thinking twice before you post something. Count to ten. Or even better, wait an hour or so before you hit that Reply button after typing your reply. A longer time limit between posts might also be a good idea.

Take note: I am also talking to myself here. Last weekend I spend most of my flying time tweaking configs and settings and my posts during the last days were inherently (if that’s the right English word) negative. In the end things worked out pretty well again and now I regret a lot of what I posted… (though not everything :wink: ). I notice that whenever something doesn’t work as I think it should (!) I get annoyed and my fingers are quick to type things that should have been typed a bit slower or even not at all. Quite a few of my posts on this forum became redundant over time all by themselves because it turned out a problem really wasn’t a problem or it was solved automatically (but not always :wink: ). I notice that whenever I am annoyed with something MSFS related I also tend to post too much, spreading my annoyance everywhere. Really bad habit. I see others doing the same.

Anyway, I decided to take some more time before I start typing something and before I hit the Reply button after typing. This might be good advice for others too.

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First of all this abusive flagging of posts needs to go. Most of the flagged posts were not offensive. The fact that they get flagged is rather an abuse of the system because the “flagellant” had disagreed with the poster previously and just clicked the “magic button” without much thought. Certain people use it as an “push here to win argument” option.

It’s ok to say that you don’t agree with negativity, ignore a topic or write something else. But trying to supress other people by all means is not cool.

Otherwise I am done with this kind of topic because the reasons for negativity are obvious to me and on the other hand it’s pointless because the only way ahead is to try the best under the circumstances.

I am sure that 99% of the people participating in this monster thread is doing exactly that: “Help to improve the state of discussion” but sadly as i see it then most of the non-constructive negativity comes from people that do not read, participate or even care for a thread like this.

So no matter how long this thread gets then it will imho not per se solve the state of discussion or avoid non-constructive negativity.

Is this thread useless then? No it is very ‘productive’ as many, my self included, learns a lot from the different inputs that people bring across. And then we can only hope that this somehow spreads across the forum and help in “improving the state of discussion on these forums and (help to) avoid (or negate) non-constructive negativity”

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While it isn’t the correct thread to discuss votes, I’ll attempt to answer your questions here. If you need more information, then create a new topic with your questions and mention @Nyx1819 or tag it with forum-feedback and I will answer those questions there.

The votes system allows you to show your support for topics in the following categories:

  • #self-service:bugs-issues
  • #self-service:wishlist
  • Dev Q and A sections (when active)

Each account has a high number of votes (either 1,000 or 10,000). When you vote for a topic your vote is used. Your vote will be restored when: a) The topic is closed, archived or moved to another category without the voting system enabled. b) You click on the vote button and click the ‘remove vote’ button that pops up.

In theory, you shouldn’t run out of votes, but if you do flick @moderators a private message.

@OctupleElm15084 Thank you for your reply, greatly appreciated!

Thank you also @Nyx1819 for your detailed reply, it definitely helps me to understand the ‘vote’ system here. I now have 9998 votes remaining, so I am good to go!

You may not, but many do and have.

For VFR it’s a proper flight simulation for the most part, for IFR no, it really is not, they still have a long ways to go on that front.

“Flight simulation” doesn’t mean what you think it means. By your logic, no flight simulator is a “proper flight simulation” at launch, which is obviously not the case.

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Is that you Austin? Whoa your a salty one arent you? Not trying to pacify anyone, im kinda salty about it too…but you wanna know whats not gonna help? Ranting about how unfair it is…life isn’t fair. So offer something constructive or sit down and wait for another broken update like everyone else. I’ve been down this road before, so I suspect things will get better, but I really can’t say for sure. If this triggers you theres always xplane? Regardless your money is gone and you aren’t getting it back i dont imagine…so the choice of how you react to it is the only thing you can control…so please do everyone else a favor and spread your misery elsewhere. Or you can pursue your some pointless litigious action? Lots of choices…

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It’s a interesting discussion and one that I think is a bit of a reflection on where we are as a society. I think there is a very simple personal rule that I try (and sometimes fail!) to apply: If you wouldn’t stand in front of someone and say the same words to them, face to face, don’t type it.

There were a bunch of posts above that were flagged, and people were asking why and saying that they shouldn’t have been. I believe they were flagged because people found them offensive. By definition, that is a subjective test. But that is where the mods come in - they review the flagged posts and decide if they stay hidden - their role is to play the ultimate arbiter. There is nothing wrong with someone flagging a post they find offensive. But let’s be clear offensive is not the same as “don’t like” or disagree with.

There are also some posts above saying that the OP and others are suggesting that compliants are being suppressed. Personally I don’t think that is true, and I don’t think that should be the case. However, what I do believe is that people need to consider the way they complain. It is this that creates the trigger for others, that can create the frustration and hence the backlash.

I’m not, in any way, suggesting that people should be apologetic if they are complaining. Be forthright, blunt and to the point as much as you like. But there is no excuse for abuse or vitriol. I’m a great believer that people tend not to get up in morning and go to work with the intention of doing a bad job, and so I believe that it is unlikely in the extreme that Asobo and MS are deliberately trying to screw up the sim. We should do what we can when we complain to help Asobo and Microsoft make things better and not hinder them.

Generally, I think most people want the sim to be great. There are some who behave in a way that makes that difficult to see at times - to the point where it can make you wonder if they are deliberately trying to stir up trouble or provoke other users. People who are here solely to do that are, hopefully, in the tiny minority, but they should be banned.

There are also more subtle forms of triggering and, frankly, abuse - using terms like “fanboy”, a term clearly intended as derogatory, and is actually intended to suppress people’s views. Just as “hater” or “ranter” is too. Terms like these have no place in these forums and repeated use of these terms is a problem in these forums and it normalises oppression. I am allowed to like the sim as much as I am allowed to dislike the sim.

As a final thought - these forums are not age restricted. Consider how you would feel if your son or daughter was to read these forums - not so much what others write, but what you write. What would that tell them about you as their parent? Just something to think about before you think “right mate, you’re going to get it for that post!”

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Well spoken.

I would like to support you here by saying that I support a flight sim club having members under the age of 16. A large number of them are not allowed by their parents to join the forum or read the posts here. A sad state of affairs IMO.

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Sadly there’s a lot to be said for that comment, especially the part in bold. In all my years being involved with online communities, some going back 15 odd years, I’ve never felt the need to block the number of people like I have on here, and there’s plenty more if I wanted to. What is fairly unique though is that those on the list are from both ends of the spectrum, with arguably a small handful of the more obnoxious ‘defenders’ who are a little bit too full of it being the biggest culprits. This quote from geoffda summed it up nicely and alluded well to one of this forums biggest problems.

Right now from my own perspective there’s little to no reason to visit here let alone attempt to contribute and that’s pretty sad really because I still very much enjoy this sim, am supportive of Asobo and what they are doing even though they have a lot of work to do to get things where they need to be. However if there are a lot of people that just wash their hands with this forum, pro or anti, new users or otherwise, then that’s hardly a positive thing for the sim or Asobo in the long run.

I’ll leave it at that.

Create a Forum category called “Vent”. Done.

Is it just me or have any of you noticed that the forums seem to have been a little …calmer and
perhaps less …polemical over the last day or two?

hmm. Maybe I have just got better at spotting whose posts are worth reading and whose posts are not!

@abreil says “Then there are many people who aren’t able to express criticism in an evenly remotely civil manner but have to attack the developers and address every issue with spite and rage. Those will always exist as well. This isn’t just related to flight simulators, but to all games. Unfortunately, you’ll always see people who think that a game is either incredibly fantastic or absolutely sh*t with zero room for middle ground. I chalk it mostly to poor education.”

I say, get off your high horse!

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