I love Reno Air Racing!

:heart: I Love Reno Air Racing, I know you do too. :heart:

It is very clear that the game developers love Reno Air Racing as well, what a wonderful addition to the MSFS 2020 experience. The recent arrival of Private Lobbies has been a huge step in the right direction, it has resulted in many hours of fun and new gaming friends. When you consider that this game is only a few months old, I believe the fun is just getting started. Some minor adjustments to the racing experience could have a major impact on many meaningful metrics. The Reno expansion is truly awesome and the race to perfection is about 95% complete, let’s cross the finish line and bring it on home!

This is meant to be an open love letter to those responsible for creating this game, not an open ended list of shortcomings and grievances. Proposed solutions will follow all stated issues so please Rare Bear with me.

GOALS:

  1. To retain all currently active Reno Racing participants.

  2. To increase player participation through re-engagement with dormant Reno players and capture the interest of new potential players.

  3. To improve upon the already great player experience for all that choose to devote countless hours shaving off tenths of a second and perfecting race strategies in time trials and group lobbies.

CURRENT ISSUES AND PROPOSED SOLUTIONS:

For those with a short attention span, let’s get right to it…… !!! (Spoiler Alert) !!!

The solution to many of the issues related to new player retention will be the restriction of the Active Pause feature prior to the first lap in both Time Trials and Group Racing qualification. After the lap timer starts I do not believe there is any harm in retaining this feature for administrative purposes like camera adjustments etc. as I believe this was the developers intended use. The use of Active Pause should still prevent the ability to have the ensuing Time Trial results be officially displayed on the leaderboard due to the potential to improve the “best lap” anytime in the trial run. (Please correct me if my logic for retaining this function is not sound). FULL DISCLOSURE, I am one of the worst offenders of this practice in Time Trials but I did not discover it myself, “I learned it from watching you”. Call me Lance Armstrong, if you must. The best example that comes to mind is of one really fast player that does not utilize this feature/exploit in Time Trials, he is usually ranked in the top 10 and is an absolute beast. But he will never be first on the Time Trials leaderboard without some performance enhancing practices. I’m sure there are other fast players in a similar predicament as well. Another “fun fact”, the fastest players using active pause now will still be ranked similarly after its restriction, the resulting times will just be much closer.

Ok, now for the details…
:zap:
ISSUE #1: LACK OF NEW PLAYER RETENTION

  • First and foremost, the initial experience after purchase is crucial and can make or break a
    new player’s interest. (In my experience many hardcore sim players believe they are the love
    child of Amelia Earhart and Chuck Yeager, I know I do). Completing your first time trial and
    feeling pretty good only to discover that you are 10 seconds slower per lap than the top guys
    can be quite discouraging to some. Others find it impossible to fathom and conclude that
    “cheating” is the only likely culprit.

Hopefully these solutions are arranged in order of ease of implementation from a programing
standpoint, please excuse my ignorance if they are not.
:dash:

  • PROPOSED SOLUTIONS: Time Trials

[ Removal of Active Pause exploits ]
As explained above.

[ Addition of a new racer orientation feature ]
This could be as simple as expanding on the current pre-race text content to include some
helpful tips and tricks. Examples: “Fly as close to the pylons as possible while finding the best
balance of airspeed and distance traveled” or “Remember to experiment with different propeller
pitch settings to maximize your airspeed” Just some ideas.

[ Addition of visual aids for new racers ]
A sort of “Training Mode” Maybe a ghost plane or virtual flight path that could demonstrate an
effective racing line. Currently the only visual examples of this exist on YouTube.

[ Scheduled resetting of Time Trial leaderboards ]
Mostly self explanatory, giving people a reason to check back in and maintain their skills. Done
by seasons or quarterly?

[ Ability to disable Ghost Plane in Time Trials ]
Another beneficial use of active pause is to get some distance between yourself and the ghost
of your former self. Providing the player with the ability to disable their Ghost Plane would be a welcome addition.

[ Insert more / better ideas here ] …….
:dash:

  • PROPOSED SOLUTIONS: Public Lobby

[ Removal of Active Pause exploits ]
As explained above.

[ The addition of an in game Reno Specific text communication system ]
A system that is only connected to the current lobby and is not dependent on friend requests or
any other system. Examples: “Hey pal, I’m going to dive low entering turn one” or “Don’t forget
to set your prop pitch” or “That was tons of fun, want to fly another race in T-6?” The sim crowd
can be a shy bunch sometimes and this could bridge some of the social gaps. Obviously subject
to content filtering, and maybe translation?

[ Matchmaking - Finding Someone to Race Against ]
We have all spent hours searching lobbies in each individual class, 2 minutes at a time without
any luck, only to select (OK) (BACK) and try another class again and again and again. I
propose a sort of general que system where all available players gather on a virtual tarmac and
wait for enough to start a race. Players can be visible to all (names visible or not) and a player
displays all 4 racing classes selected in order of preference. If a player wants to wait for
Biplanes they can, if they get tired of waiting they can join an Unlimited race. Many details to
work out and potentially complex. I can imagine most players would be absolutely delighted to
use a system like this compared to the current offering.

[ The Scoring and Ranking System ]
Losing points can be discouraging to many players, I suggest an additive only system. A red
arrow pointing down is not much fun. I have not given the granular details much thought but I
have heard this complaint from many players. If a positive only system results in excessive
score amounts, maybe seasons with scheduled resets would give folks a carrot to look forward
to? Many details to work out, maybe address the lowest hanging fruit first. A complex topic but
seemingly important to many.

[ Insert more / better ideas here ] …….

:zap:
ISSUE #2: KEEPING GROUP RACING FUN AND COMPETITIVE FOR ALL EXPERIENCE LEVELS

  • So here’s the deal Lucile…… you are never going to make everyone happy. I fly with a
    passionate group of regular racers and I believe most of us share similar viewpoints on
    this issue. Most favor group racing in Unlimited and T-6 classes due to the amazing ability
    to draft in wake turbulence and pass other players, which results in a ridiculously good
    experience for all. Jet and Biplane could use some very minor adjustments to increase
    the fun factor, we still love them. Private Lobbies were a big win, more environment
    options will only improve the fun factor there as well. The above Public Lobby solutions
    apply here as well.

:dash:

  • PROPOSED SOLUTIONS: Jet

[ Wake Turbulence Adjustment ]
The existing jet wash and wake turbulence model may be technically accurate, however it it not
super fun to fly behind and does not seem to reduce drag for all the chaos it creates. A minor
adjustment in area of effect and severity may improve competition. It is not impossible but very
challenging to overcome this obstacle in a race.
:dash:

  • PROPOSED SOLUTIONS: Unlimited

[ Aerodynamic Model Adjustments ]
It would appear that the elevator is largely getting a “free pass”. When applying full elevator at the
pylon the course distance can be drastically reduced with very little penalty to airspeed, while this
is fun it seems a bit too far of a deviation from an authentic flight model. Then there is the
FLAPPY BIRD exploit, “pumping the elevator increases airspeed”. I have never seen this utilized
in group competition but it is responsible for at least the top 5 time trial efforts. You can find a
video of this on YouTube, it’s quite nauseating to watch from the cockpit view.
:dash:

  • PROPOSED SOLUTIONS: T-6

[ None ]
It’s too much fun already!
:dash:

  • PROPOSED SOLUTIONS: Biplanes

[ Wake Turbulence Adjustment ]
The existing wake turbulence model feels accurate however I’m not sure how else to increase
passing opportunities in this class. Maybe a minor increase of drag reduction effect would help.
Currently group races play out like a multiplayer time trial, though still enjoyable.
:dash:

  • PROPOSED SOLUTIONS: All Classes

[ Additional Private Lobby Options ]
Many ideas of varying complexity and seriousness here. Adjustable wake turbulence in both
area and amount of effect would be fun. The ability to race in ridiculous wind gusts or
thunderstorms, we already race at night :slight_smile: The ability to turn off certain pylon penalties, sky’s the
limit in a private lobby.

[ Insert more / better ideas here ] …….

:zap:
ISSUE #3: RE-ENGAGING DORMANT RENO RACERS AND ATTRACTING NEW ONES

  • For all those that own the Reno Expansion and do not participate, implementing some of the
    solutions proposed above may be enough to convince dormant players to reinvest some time
    into this awesome game with ONE VERY CRUCIAL CAVEAT, you have to get them to check
    back into the Reno Races. What better way to incentivize players to check back in than…

    *************** SEE AWESOME PROPOSAL BELOW****************

:dash:

  • PROPOSED SOLUTIONS: For Everybody

[ A New racing Class or Aircraft ]
Nothing will be more effective at getting dormant players to check back in than the mother of all
carrots! If some of the aforementioned improvements are in place ahead of an event like a new
racing class or aircraft reveal, I believe existing player engagement could improve dramatically.
The Gee Bee and STOL Drags come to mind (hint hint).

:small_airplane: :airplane:
TO THE MSFS TEAM:

The love and devotion required to bring a game like this into existence is obvious and it shows. Thank you. The few shortcomings listed are minor and to be expected in a new endeavor such as this. I understand flight sims are a bit of a niche and air racing is a niche inside of that. Please stick with us and continue the amazing work. Many of us here in the Reno racing community would love to contribute to its further success in whatever meaningful way we can.

:checkered_flag:
TO ALL MY FELLOW RACERS OUT THERE:

I am sure I have missed topics or suggestions that are important to you, please respond and I will consider editing the initial post to reflect them. I believe it would be most effective to restrict these suggestions to “helpful tweaks” aimed at improving the current player experience, an expansive “wish list” could distract from the goals here and may best be a topic for another thread. Again, this expansion is only a few months old and I am confident that the best is yet to come.

Now go set your prop pitch, avoid the dirt and fly those pylons tight!

Warm Regards,
Chilli
:kissing_heart:

Update:
As per the moderators suggestion, I have begun listing the issues individually in the corresponding category. Links below

[ Active Pause ]

13 Likes

To further illustrate the Active Pause exploit, I present to you an extreme example of a Time Trial attempt with many performance enhancing features present. The aircraft in the image is “actively paused”.

I think it fair to assume that this is not the intended use of this feature. A restriction of its use in specific scenarios or invalidation of the resulting leaderboard times would be a positive change for all.

:kissing_heart:

1 Like

Love the races! Fix the points system and the active pause exploit and it will be just that little bit better for everyone.

3 Likes

Everything you say is accurate, but it still seems impossible to find exactly where to post these issues to get the attention of the devs involved in Reno. Having viewed the template for reporting bugs, it appears to be mostly irrelevant. The flaws that drag the game down are not bugs, so reproducing them won’t help

The scoring system discourages any new player from continuing to compete

The ranking system is based on this flawed scoring system

Matchmaking, as described by Chilli is a disaster.

In game communication is needed to explain and help new players understand the techniques for going fast

There are quite a few more fixes before Reno becomes generally fair and playable again

But the question is how do we get the attention of the devs to discuss and fix these problems??

Yes, I love Reno Racing, but sadly I am watching it collapse under the weight of it’s own deficiencies

3 Likes

Chilli this is very well said, and an accurate summary of what needs to be fixed. I do love this add on also, and hope it can be saved before there is no interest left. I would add that anybody interested in learning how to go fast, and racing with a great group of guys should check out this Discord channel: FS2020 Reno Racing International

2 Likes

Hello @HarryHowzer.

As Reno is developed by Asobo, the same categories are relevent for Reno, that also apply to the base MSFS.
Feature requests including those for Reno would go into the #self-service:wishlist category. Issues, that you may not classify as bugs, but rather as exploits for example would go into the #bugs-and-issues category. If it concerns the Reno race itself, #bugs-and-issues:online-services may be the best subsection and if it concerns the flight model #bugs-and-issues:aircraft-systems may be more appropriate. To make topics easier to find, choose a descriptive title and add the reno-air-races tag in the appropriate field when creating a topic. Note: Developers may also read posts in other forum categories, but the above mentioned categories are probably what you are looking for, for best visibility.

Please remember to check the [Read first] posts that are pinned per category which gives guidelines like “Post only one bug per topic” before opening a new Topic. E.g. [READ FIRST] About the Online services category

2 Likes

Thank you Julian. We have a solid core of passionate Reno racers, yet disappointed that the issues we mentioned here still pervade. Interest appears to be waning, even in our group, and members are almost desperate to at least get some feedback on these issues

Hopefully, following your guidelines will help us along that path

Your response is very much appreciated

3 Likes

@ITDreamFly
That is useful information indeed and much appreciated, thank you.

@HarryHowzer
It would appear that presenting these issues on an individual basis and in the appropriate categories will give us the best opportunity for developer engagement. Active Pause shall be the first and most pressing issue, resulting in the biggest bang for out buck. Addressing the remaining issues individually will be a labor of love for sure, glad you are on our side Harry :star_struck:

This forum topic can serve as an effective staging area prior to launching these issues and proposed solutions into the proper categories.

2 Likes

Hi Chilli,

Phew, I managed (with the help of google translate :relaxed:) to read your post.
I don’t find anything new about it. You have mentioned everything that needs to be addressed.
Thank you very much for your detailed contribution. applause! :clap: :+1:

Best wishes

Tino

4 Likes

Most crucial points have already been mentioned by Chilli, so no need to repeat them again.
Still, the Active Pause cheating is something i know about, never used, still got decent/good times, but absolutely hate. (unrealistic Pylon cornering in Unlimited is another thing)

But the main reasons i wanted to post are the following.

  1. Show some numbers in the menu, how many people are in the Reno addon.
    Show how many are looking for races in which class. That would in my eyes immensely help to decide, if you queue up for a race for yourself.

  2. Let the player choose to queue up for multiple/all classes at once. If someone doesn’t care in which class he races and just wants to find a race, this could greatly help with races that actually take place, as you are not limited to search for a race in just one class.

  3. Private Lobbys are absolutely horrible for the Multiplayer Community in my eyes. There are not that many players that race and offering them an option to “exclude” others is not the way to go in my mind.
    A better solution would be, to let friends form groups to join and therefore race together.
    But the benefit is, Players that only fly alone (at least for the moment), will also find races faster, as there are more taking place instead of less by making them private.

4 Likes

Well put @ChilliGrible, thank you for stating our concerns most concisely. I could not have said it better myself. I do have one addition however which is related to active pause. I would like to see the ability to remove your ghost when doing time trials. When you are searching for tenths of a second, you spend most of your time on top of your ghost. To me, the ghost just seems to get in the way. That is one of the things I like about active pause, it allows your ghost to get away so as not to be near you during the time trial. If I could just turn the ghost off, it would achieve the same outcome without the ability to increase my speed. Just a thought.

Again, than you for laying our concerns and taking the time to put thought into proposed solutions.

4 Likes

@ZBumpkin That is an absolutely excellent :clap: point about the ghost behavior, I too use Active Pause to get way from my Ghost. I will report that as a separate request in the appropriate forum category and ad it to my initial post here.
Thanks.

2 Likes

Thank you for this message @ChilliGrible!

The reno pilot community is full of talented, active and pro-active pilots and it is important that Asobo does not forget them! The DLC has a great potential that should not be spoiled by youth bugs. It is designed to bring this type of racing to as many people as possible and the developers should not forget that many people are not ready to be patient if they do not get enough fun in return.

There is still time to react before this DLC, and all the work it required from all the people involved, remains in the minds of most people as a complete failure.

3 Likes

Asobo is going to react to the community recommendations and improve their already awesome product. It is their 9-5 job, let’s give them an honest chance.
I am a believer!
:muscle: Go MSFS Team! :muscle:

3 Likes

I currently have the best lap time in the T-6 Time Trial leaderboards as well.
I present to you another visual representation of the Active Pause exploit.
Aircraft in the image is actively paused.


Let us break this down.

  1. 219 kts starting airspeed
  2. Aircraft rolled towards pylon 1
  3. Propeller Pitch set perfectly
  4. A small bit of fuel expelled ( the T-6 does not respond like other aircraft to the fuel reduction exploit ). It experiences fuel starvation below 35% fuel capacity.

:checkered_flag: :japanese_ogre: :checkered_flag:
I currently have the fastest lap on the T-6 leaderboards as of this posting.
Let me give myself a little bit of credit, I am reasonably fast but not that fast. :muscle: :innocent:

I do not mean to disrespect other players or the development team, my intention is just to clearly illustrate my point of view.
:kissing_heart:

Lets fix it. :hammer: :wrench: :nut_and_bolt: :triangular_ruler: :straight_ruler:

4 Likes

I have to disagree with you about the private lobbies. We run them all the time and invite whoever we can to join us, but those invitations for the most part are ignored. Private races have given us a place where we can get together at any given time and race when no races are found in open lobbies

They provide us with the break from the monotony of the more rigid races which due to the current number of failures in Reno (Matchmaking, scoring and ranking) that have discouraged players from continuing racing, as well as the limited options in races. We do have seriously competitive racing in the privates as well

We have used private races to help pilots who were disappointed with the current system to train up to a level where that can see how to go as fast as the rest, what lines to fly and what techniques and tactics we use in races. Those who joined us to try it have stayed and become some of the best competitors. But there is much more to private races that keep people interested and hopeful that issues will be resolved

They provide a fun place for races where you can leave realism behind and just enjoy flying with friends

Make your own rules is one. We make up races with some frankly ridiculous ideas and even crazier ideas with scoring. It creates races that usually have adults laughing their butts off

Changing weather is another that allows night racing,

No collision races, while being totally unrealistic, create the most intense races with as many as 5 planes crossing the finish line with less than a tenth of a second between them.

We have offered you to join us in voice chat and come and find out how different it is. Yes, we have experimented with the exploits and discovered cheats which we have made public and reported to the developers, but we do not use them in our races. As the leaderboards at this time are meaningless, we generally tend to ignore them and just enjoy the racing our Discord community offers

All I can suggest to you is that you join us in our chat and see for yourself. You will never know unless you try it

3 Likes

Sorry, my post got a bit long, but i wanted to explain my opinion in detail. (The conclusion is the bolded text)

Don’t get me wrong. I completely understand, why you and others like the private lobbies. They are (or rather would be) indeed a perfect addition to the everything IF the game/the sim would provide the correct circumstances for it (which is not the case in my opinion).

I don’t know how much you are into gaming and therefore have experience with other communitys of different types of games.
Private lobbies in any type of game can be seen as some sort of excluding people or even elitism.
The internet is a place were most people are strangers to each other, they are anonym.

Some people WANT to be left alone/play alone. They don’t want to bother in any way with human interaction and just play the game or in this case, race an airplane and leave afterwards.
Others are absolutely firghtened having to interact with people “directly” in a private race in chat or even worse in a discord channel. They love to play/race, but still want to feel save by being in their own room and at best don’t have to say/write anything and just enjoy the game/sim.

I know it is a bit of a cliche, but gamers are often not the most social ones. Not because they don’t want to, but because they can’t. They don’t know how. I don’t know if the percentage in a flight sim is lower, equal or higher to other games, but just from my experience from other games, interacting with others is not the strongest abilities for a lot of gamers.

I hope, you get the point i’m trying to make.

And now, you are in a game/a sim which is a niche product and in that you have another product that you have to buy extra, which makes it even more niche.
That means, you have a small playerbase and cut that even more. We are not talking about tens of thousands people like in other games, but rather about hundret(s), maybe thousand.
On top of that, you have the people that don’t want to socially interact but would love to just race.
On top of that, you have people, that don’t use discord, that don’t have a look into forums, that simply don’t know about the “Reno community”.

All of that cuts the player base further and further which leads to a few, that race together at specific times and even then make their races private so the single players don’t even know, that someone is racing because they don’t see who is racing. They don’t get invites in the games or see the races in game and thereby know, that races actually happen.

Don’t assume, just because you want to be in a discord, communicate, share and inform yourself about certain aspects, everyone else likes to do this.
In fact, from my experience from other games, i bet that at least half of the people, if not more are just using the Sim, and nothing else. Not even the forums. They just don’t know or don’t bother. They go into the lobby, look for a race, don’t get invited and leave again.
And by creating private lobbies, there are even less races they could get an invite to, which leads to leaving or not bothering with that aspect of MSFS2020.
In bigger games with tens of thousands players, private lobbies are no big deal, as there are more than enough open games. In fact, in that situation private lobbies are good. You can create custom games with your friends. In a niche aspect (Reno) of a rather niche game (MSFS2020) this is a very questionable way to go.

A better approach in my mind:

  1. Like already said, show the numbers of players that are in Reno and also in which class (looking for a race)
  2. Let people queue up for multiple classes
  3. Allow groups to queue up together. They can still fly together, but also include single players
  4. Allow people to open races manually including a description. Like “collisions of”, “night race” or whatever specific type of race/rules you want. People then can join on purpose these types of races without the need of knowing about a discord, being forced to interact with others etc.
    That way you have your “private lobbies” but they are still visible for others and you can wait for a few minutes and see if someone wants to join you on your specific race rules.
3 Likes

This is an excellent discussion.
I simply do not understand why the aircraft spawns in the race beginning with weird speed and RPM.
We don’t have to get rid of active freeze, if the gost could be disabled and if the spawning happens in the top speed, with the RPM stabilized in maximum (I believe that RPM adjustment isn’t cheating, but should be part of the explanatory notes).
This topic is very relevant to all Reno lovers, thank you.

3 Likes

This is false. We know from experience, that private lobbies have actually helped in our case to increase player participation. We have a number on members who were trying to find races but found none, eventually found our group, and told us how glad they were to find a place where they could fly regularly, and they are still with us, and fly regularly

And since I have been gaming since the 80s and been in numerous groups, clans and other organizations, I find you assumption about gamers and group communication also to be incorrect. Having been leader of clans, some with so may members that we had to run 4 different Teamspeak servers to accomodate them. Gamers band together, and compete with other groups and enjoy chatting with friends in their groups

The real issue is that this is MSFS and there tends to be a large group who exhibit a level of arrogance in their pursuit of perfection in the sim, and I have seen posts from people who simply consider it an arcade game because it doesn’t encompass all of the finer details of piloting that they are obsessed with. We will never see many of thos in the Races, which is essentially the gaming element of MSFS.

But that is their right, and our problem is players who have been discouraged by the flaws in the Reno expansion. Our discord group has made it work while we wait for flaws and bugs to be fixed, and work hard to encourage others to join us BECAUSE we have private lobby races regularly and have proved to a number of folks that it can, and does work. We offer the opportunity for players to take a fresh look at Reno racers to prove that it isn’t as bad as the naysayers in the forums claim it is

Those who have chosen to accept our invitation have become some of our most active members. Those who choose not are doing themselves a disservice

So my question is, which side of this are you on??

P.S.: Why would anyone on private lobbies want to exclude players?? We welcome all players. The more, the better

2 Likes

Well, the 80s are not the same like 2020.
Yes, in the 80s or also when i started gaming (later than you) it was definitely helpful to be in a clan, a group, use Teamspeak and so on.
Now in 2020, people even choose to play MMOs on their own. They don’t want to join any group at all, but still want to do at least some group content but in anonymous way.

And this is a big mistake.
EVERY player counts in a community this small.

Those who don’t accept, for whatever reason, are not only doing themselves a disservice, but also YOU and the WHOLE community in combination with the private lobbies.
They have their reason why they don’t want to be part of the Discord which YOU see as the only viable way. A lot of people might not even know about the Discord and will never do so because they don’t read any forums, Discords …
And from my experience there are a not just a handful of those.
But not accepting the Discord invite or not knowing about the Discord, doesn’t mean, that they don’t want to race.
And if most of the very few races are private races it is even harder for them to find any races at all. They get bored of searching, leave and might never come back.
And by that you loose players who would perhaps want to race, but just not in the way you want them to.

That’s why i said, change privates lobbies to custom races that everybody can see and join.
You don’t loose ANY benefit of the private lobbies, but open them up for more players. Show numbers of players, show title for custom races so everybody knows what he/she is going to join.
Private lobbies/games work in games with big communities, as they don’t reduce the playerbase by a noticeable amount. But Reno doesn’t have that huge community.

You want to attract more people to Reno, but not everybody is willing to go the way, you see as the only way to go.
Locking away the few active people behind doors might still attract a few others, that is correct.
But the focus should be on attracting as many as possible, which includes also the random players.

4 Likes