Incorrect spatial relations between thermals and Cu clouds makes realistic glider flights impossible

[EPPRglider81]

Thank you using the Bug section, using templates provided will greatly help the team reproducing the issue and ease the process of fixing it.

Are you using Developer Mode or made changes in it?

no

Have you disabled/removed all your mods and addons?

Yes, retested with official gliders

Brief description of the issue:

Incorrect placement of thermals in relation to Cu clouds (experienced both with weather presets and live weather), as detailed on the picture below makes realistic glider flights requiring use of thermals impossible. In real life glider pilots observe location of Cumulus clouds to find thermal lift and be able to do cross country flights over flatlands.
This bug report concentrates only on the spatial relations between thermals and Cu clouds, other discrepancies of thermal model (like shape, size, lift distribution etc) will be reported in separate bug reports.
Expected solution: Please correct thermal model and cloud visualization of all cases depicted in the illustration.

Provide Screenshot(s)/video(s) of the issue encountered:

All experienced incorrect cases are summarized on the picture below:

Video showing incorrect case 3: https://youtu.be/liJFPNN1_eA?t=351

Retested in SU11 with official gliders, confirms same effects,
no improvement in thermal model between SU11BETA and SU11

Provide coordinates (DevMode > Options > Display position)

This issue reports many deficiences in SU11 thermal model, can be experienced in many places.
Video above was recorded starting from EPKO - 54.128295 17.840775

Provide time & date of the observed Weather issue

Detailed weather settings are visible on above video, here are relevant screenshots


summer for strong thermals - 17 July 2022 13:02 local (11:02 UTC)

Detailed steps to reproduce the issue encountered:

Perform glider flight with weather and time settings as depicted - single active, but thick layer of Cu clouds, some wind for thermals to be active, follow path as recorded in the above video, or any other flatland terrain.

PC specs and/or peripheral set up if relevant:

does not apply

Build Version # when you first started experiencing this issue:

SU11BETA retested in SU11

---

For anyone who wants to contribute on this issue, Click on the button below to use this template:

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

[Renfoyle]

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

yes

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

[IdealAirman]

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

yes

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

MSFS SU11 thermals are independent of or unrelated to the visible features they produce in real life, I.e. cumulus clouds. The interdependence of thermal position and cloud position is very important for soaring pilots to make judgments about climbing or pressing 9n. The OP has defined the issue well.

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

nothing to add.

[SiwertSweden]

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

[auspoundy]

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Yes

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

Very complete report already submitted.
If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

[EPPRglider81]

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Well it is again me so Yes

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

I did a retest on latest 1.29.29.0 with official glider showing case #2 from the main illustration above - location EPKO (flatlands I fly in RL for 10 years, no ridge lift possible), 17 July 2022 13:02 local, same weather (full .WPR xml seen on the screenshot). After airtow to about 1000m I climbed using only available “blue thermals” (without ever being under cloud or entering any cloud) above condensation height, that is as defined in WPR single cloud layer bottom, to as seen 1775m - well above preset and observable cloud bottom. As expressed in description of case #2 there shouldn’t be thermal at such height or such thermal should form a Cu cloud there right after rising above condensation height. As you can also observe 3D thermal visualization promises also lift well above cloud tops which would be also illustration of incorrectness of case #3.

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

[SierraHotel2873]

See also here and the official DWD thermal forecast (toptherm - one needs a subscription for access) for the day vs the conditions in the sim. Not even remotely close.

DG Aviation DG-1001E neo

Alright, first of all, it is wonderful, that we now have the first implementation of gliding into the sim at all. Great job and thank you. For future improvement here my first observations going from LOWI to LOIJ, towing out of LOWI along the Inntal northridge, crossing at LOKI to Wilder Kaiser and than to LOIJ plus testing the engine along the way for about 10min. Handling - Improvements: Adverse Yaw too weak (it´s a big wing) String not realistic in response to rudder Spoiler seems not eff…

[Slotti9655]

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Yes

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

[Jigsaw407]

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Yes

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

[CptNautilus1970]

The thermal modelling can definitely be improved. Looking forward to the next update.

[WaldoP3pper]

Vertical Wind Analysis SU11 - by ANRI of SimSoaringClub

[ANRI8496]

This analysis has passed into the category of errors and suggestions and is published on this forum.

Errors of AMBIENT WIND Y dependencies on the values of flight conditions and terrain settings in SU11

Thank you using the Bug section, using templates provided will greatly help the team reproducing the issue and ease the process of fixing it. Are you using Developer Mode or made changes in it? No Have you disabled/removed all your mods and addons? Yes Brief description of the issue: Errors of AMBIENT WIND Y dependencies on the values of flight conditions and terrain settings in SU11 are erroneous and significantly affect the flight in MSFS2020. Provide Screenshot(s)/video(s)…

[unbeneva]

My experience in real life is that as a rule of thumb, thermals are roughly 3 times the distance apart as their altitude. i.e. cloud base in AGL and thermal spacing are related in a 3 to 1 manner. So, if base is at 1000m usually thermals are about 3km apart.