MSFS is an amazing piece of work... Right?

I know this is a nostalgia thread and those are great, …

… but I have to question the reasoning of the OP, when we have to compare products that are 30+ years apart to make a point.

Computer technology and the market have changed immensely over these past decades, so just comparing MRSPs is irrelevant. Not only are PCs and consoles omnipresent in todays world in comparison to the 1980s, they are also so much more advanced, that the top picture shows exactly the same as the bottom one: amazing graphics - for the time the product released to market.

“We have gotten so much more this time around.”

Yes, in absolute terms that is correct. But you could say the same about a DC-3 in comparison to an A320 or a 1964 Ford Mustang to a Tesla Model S. Hardly surprising at all. :slight_smile:

Yet we are still basically at the same status quo. Amazing graphics, inconsistent performance and unrealistic physics. I dare to say that, relative to their time, the sims are rather similar in what they offer.

Sorry for kiling the vibe. :yum: :sweat_smile:

I realize when you live long enough, that advancing technology feels like magic, but in the great scheme of things, not much has changed at all.

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I didn’t post this with nostalgia in mind. More in line with your post. Both titles are/were cutting edge. The difficulties encountered are also similar regardless of the advances we have made. MSRP comparison is there to keep perspective. This sim is not grossly overpriced for what we got. The purpose of this post was to remind users that if you want to participate in the tip of the spear, patience, perseverance, support and cooperation is what is needed.

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Ah, thanks for clarifying.

I agree with you on all points.

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Absolutely agree.

Given the time I have already spent siming in FS2020 (not sure tbh but must be over 80 hours) I am pretty happy with the price I paid for the Premium Deluxe version. At the moment, it’s a fraction of what I paid for the sim and addons in X-plane 11.

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“MSFS is an amazing piece of work”
Yes, no doubt.

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I would point out that one of those is minor, and one is a function of differences between PAL and NTSC (it runs at 60Hz rather than 50Hz). However you could basically fly the things. It’s also written in 6502 assembler which is way harder work than C or whatever this is in (and yes I do both, I’ve got some idea what I’m talking about).

I take the point on constructive criticism. So here it is.

Okay, here’s how I see it. You are at Point A. You can’t change that, you have to start from here. So how do you make this potentially awesome piece of software fly, because it isn’t, and pretending it’s just teething problems or trying to PR it away with “look at the superb graphics” won’t work.

Well, as far as is possible I would throw everything out except for CTD - I don’t care about problems in the graphics rendering that are minor - there isn’t a block of flats at EGSV (I live within walking distance) but I can live with that as long as its not in the middle of a runway. (And if it was, at a tiny backwater airport like EGSV it should be very low priority). Also, the Graphics are way better than the other flight sims standard graphics, and most of the add ons anyway.

The #1 problem is that there is not a single reliable IFR jet (IMO, I’m a VFR man myself which is much easier). So pick one. The A320 would be sensible as it seems to be the best. Focus all efforts on making that flyable. Get some help from the 32NX team who clearly have some idea if necessary. If you can get one plane working well enough so that people can fly from EHAM to EGKK with a pretty good chance of success then people will live with it. Even simplify it a bit. iNop is better than RandomOp.

Yes, they won’t be 100% happy about only being able to fly one airliner, especially if they’ve paid for others, but they’ll live with it, they can fly from A to B on VATSIM or whatever.

Likewise make sure on of the turboprob types - it doesn’t really matter which - works as well. Make it clear which one. I think the Cessna 152 is reasonably stable as it has almost no electronics. The VOR can go on the backburner for a while.

Only do things like the UK update if the people cannot contribute to the central problems. ; developing, testing. I live in the UK, and I can manage. They can write some proper instructions ; borrow from FSX if necessary. Or just buy SoFly’s out which should have been there in the first place.

#2 is the “bug fixing”. Have a proper larger beta testing group. This shouldn’t be hard ; simply skip one update and put a checkbox in the setup “are you on the beta ?” and have two sets of module lists. People on the beta take the risk, they can’t complain if something breaks. That’s what betas do. They do so knowing they get the latest and greatest,and can contribute but also that it may bring problems.

The scariest thing on my screen now is “Reduced yaw oscillation by further reducing yaw gain”. Why ? Because it sounds like you are addressing the symptoms not figuring out why it’s oscillating. Flattening a yaw multiplier isn’t a fix.

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@PaulRobson8096 That was a bit like reading code… :grin: .
I agree the developers need to step back too. I would dearly like to see a stable base/world/weather model completed. That in conjunction with a focus on debugging the current default aircraft so that we eliminate the “RandomOp” (love that, by the way).

What I really want, though, is the community to get out of the developer’s way. Most of the issues I see in the “Bugs” section are self inflicted. An i9 CPU with a 3080 GPU may be blowing the “requirements” out of the water, but if you think you can run 4K on that with a 650 watt PSU, you are daft. (just one example)

I think if the users on this forum could park their egos and accept a little assistance from the users that have their sims running smoothly, (without AP, if need be), I think the real bugs would start to stand out and Asobo would have a better idea of what IS actually broken. Right now, Zendesk is like trying to find a tear in a waterfall. We can help each other better that Asobo can. Just check out this thread…

We can take a lot of the load off the real bug hunters and we will all be better for it.

That is absolutely true. They’ve brought that on themselves though by launching an unfinished product with far too many bugs and no documentation. If you put what is essentially barely tested low beta level software out there, don’t be surprised if you get deluged with complaints. That’s the reason for having a beta level option.

If you sell something for money that barely works and isn’t finished, you can’t really complain when people object to that. The idiotic PR approach (e.g. the supposed “beta testing” which was actually a giant PR exercise rather than actual beta testing) doesn’t help either.

If they’d have limited it to the basic version with the upgrades coming in a few months, people would have been okay with that, like they are basically okay with the helicopters not being there.

This is the problem ; you can’t really do “without AP” unless you sell it as a partly completed flight sim which is VFR only. (The c172 AP as far as I can see works just about well enough, though it does occasionally go bonkers for no apparent reason). IFR flying is largely reliant on the avionics for most people, they don’t hand fly it in the way I might fly the 152.

Great Joke! My favorite part of the joke was when you said ‘Amazing piece of work’ quite the comedian.

As a simmer since the 80’s I totally agree with the sentiment of the OP. It is a great piece of work which has totally transformed certainly the VFR side of simming for the moment and shown the potential for future greatness in the big-tin IFR world too but it ain’t there yet. It’s a big step change from where we were in the previous generation of sims it’s just that so many seem to expect perfection out of the box - which never ever happens!

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Nobody expects perfection. Expecting things to at least slightly work and bug fixes to be tested properly is hardly unreasonable.

We are free to use or not.

Right, now that this thread has …calmed down a little!

YES.

As my first ever flight sim I’m more than amazed every time I fire it up, absolutely blown away by how it looks (99% of the time :relaxed:) and I’m just itching to fly to new places every single day, nearly 80 hrs flying time so far and my PS4 hasn’t been in use since the day I got this( along with my first ever pc bought just for this) and that is something I never thought would happen so I really don’t get the hate this is receiving. The screenshots I’ve been showing to friends and family has them doing double takes and it flies really smoothly too with two CTD since I’ve had it but that may have been me messing with the settings to begin with…just showing this game some well deserved love in my eyes :+1:

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I have invested over $2000 invested in games and addons on Steam but haven’t touched them since 18th August, and that’s coming from someone who unlike you have been using flight sims since 2005 :slight_smile:

Some people find it entertaining to hate on things and that’s normal. Nothing you could or should do about it imo. If some people want to unlearn how to have fun, who am I to stop them? Just ignore them and do what you love doing. Don’t let others decide what you should love and hate. You live your life the way you see fit, and so do others.

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This is nicely put. Thank you for expressing it and you speak for me on this front too.

I was a software development manager before i quit for better things, and I think the engagement with the customers is better than it was. I also think that the Devs are using a well structured, agile roadmap approach which is quite responsive to the bug and improvement reporting being made by us.

I do, however, think that even cutting edge deliveries need to be very consistently stable, especially with an application that is surely going to be built upon for a few years to come. A good foundation, if you like. Times have changed: this is what good, modern, software architecture demands.

Some of the issues being reported don’t ring true with that, but that’s just my opinion. When there are significant issues with installing and crashing, then it falls very hard. These are issues which aren’t expected in modern software deliveries and not getting the sim to install, or having the game silently fail on loading are not the same thing as having an ILS not align correctly. Some people have spent more hours installing and trying to get the game working than actually flying, which is a shame. For example, I have had to install it several times already and I haven’t owned it very long. I also get regular crashes with no feedback or logging, on a system within the specs, bought from a major manufacturer (Dell) and never tinkered with. That’s pretty bad as a customer experience.

But on the whole, I do agree and it’s a really, really fine thing that is a joy for most people to use. And well priced for what we get. It’s great value, not just for money but for time and energy spent with it.

Great thread, thanks :+1:

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Yeah. Which makes it even more weird that the projected fix dates as shown in the bug reports part of Q&As are mostly months away.

And I also think that Asobo devs are leaving all their peer reviews (if you know what I’m talking about) for Fridays…and working from home. Ahem.

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haha - yeah… there could be a bit of that happeneing :open_mouth:

How refreshing to see such a positive discussion in this forum. The sim may not be perfect, but I believe Asobo, Microsoft, and others have already shown that they are committed to the long-term success of this sim. They are off to a great start.

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Not if you’ve already paid for it.