Nope. No chance to identify airspaces or correct VFR routes from the default scenery. I don’t talk about ORBX landclass addons which make it a little better. it’s about the pure, default sim. On a VFR chart the boarders of any airspace is clearly visible to the ground and now you can 1:1 compare it to the scenery. Every intersection, church, lake or drive-in cinema is there, if not modelled then at least recognizable on the satellite image below. That’s what makes VFR and this was not possible before.

Regarding IFR we’ve always had to rely on external networks, navdata etc. That’s never been there by default.

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you see whats on a TAC chart or a sectional? how the airspaces are defined? it doesnt take photoreal scenery to define an airspace.

even fs98 had roads and shorelines, etc. you could easily determine where you were. we used to do it all the time, i would play around under the seattle class B and stay clear just to mess with the vatsim controller :slight_smile:

ok i decided to look at the current seattle TAC chart. i can’t find a single vfr landmark or reporting point on it that wasnt discernible in fs98

we’ve always had the equipment to fly IFR. even FS2 had the equipment to fly /A , it had 2 vors and a dme iirc.


Love you, dude, if just all of those haters would be that mature and informed. People think that the state the sim is in now is final, while people that read enough and followed Q&A + Development perfectly know that A LOT more is to come. This is just the start. People don’t remember what Xplane and Fsx used to be before all the fixes and updates. I’m highly impressed how the sim looks and feels at launch already. Imagine how things will be in a year! A dream.

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So true. I tell people all the time, all models are wrong (and some are useful). All of them. It’s an inescapable reality.

A default aircraft model is wrong (in at least some respect). A $100+ fancy “study level” add-on aircraft model is wrong. Even professional grade simulations are wrong.

But that doesn’t mean that they’re useless or garbage. Just have to understand the things they’re good for and the things they aren’t.


for point 1, why should this be ok though? why are we ok with products being released full of issues now? too many factors in today’s world?

for point 2, well i paid $160 for my copy so yes it can cost as little as $1 on the game pass it can cost significantly more as well, so the people that did pay $160 for a game i can see having some issue with their purchase.

for point 3, well yeah updates are a thing so no issue there

for point 4… no the closed beta and alpha were QA testing, this goes to point number 1, why are we now ok with this? i could see it if this was some small dev that had like 3 computers total to test on, but no there is MS backing this they have the means to test things if they wanted too.

im happy with the purchase now that i can actually play the game, but i can see how others might be irritated

you know what would be refreshing and 100% possible to do, not announce or release a game until its mostly finished and polished, if this game would have stayed in the devs hands for another 6 months it probably would have been perfect on release.

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So much this. My hope is that they improve on the map generation so they can push that tech to its limits. There’s still a few landmarks that won’t show up in my area such as transmission towers, a few wind turbines missing as well. Nevertheless, nothing compares to what MSFS offers in this regard. It’s great to be able to fly the world over and simulate flying a plane (the experience being as hard or easy as one wanted it to be) while doing so.


Market place

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I agree Tom. I think they can do both.

It’s that Zendesk link at the top of the page.

Spot on! Thats it.

Mwuah, looking at other fields I wonder whether it really is all too different. Looking within my own profession, Epic comes to mind. Not Epic as in the game development company behind popular titles such as Unreal and Fortnite, but Epic Systems Corporation. Their Electronical Medical Records are used for over half of all patient records in the US, an increasing amount of patient records in Europe and overall globally hundreds of millions of patient records are managed with Epic.

Yet, not a day goes by without frustration with the system. Problems are, despite it by now being a product with many, many more years of development than MSFS, ever present. Bugs occur. Features desired as a clinician are still lacking. Etcetera.

Also in these sort of fields, you just settle with what you go. But I do think that despite shortcomings and issues, we also have to realize the complexity behind modern software applications and videogames. It’s not so much less rigorous development as what it perhaps once used to be, complexity is just so much greater than what it used to be.

Good old classic MSDOS had not much over 10k lines of code, modern Windows has millions of lines of code. Google in 2015 boasted their 2 billionth line of code within their products. Modern games these days, comparable massive figures with the unreal engine at over 2 million lines of code for the engine alone.

And although lines of code alone obviously don’t say much, because it can quickly increase with limited number of characters per line, whitespacing, etc. The vast differences in numbers do of course indicate the increasing levels of complexity.

With MSFS, taking into account the simulator itself, as well as the integrated platforms. This just once more shows the level of complexity involved with products such as these.

And although a bug free product would of course be ideal, I just don’t see it as realistic. No matter to what extent an alpha, beta or whatever further testing is done. There will always be issues. Continued support and development is what matters most.


I payed ONE EURO for first month. I am having a blast flying in 4K with ultra settings at 15…ish FPS. Yeah… I have also some freezes but I also record my flights in the same time.
I am used with sims like DCS World. I know what good quality FM means and also how deep the systems² hole can go.
Never owned FSX and below but I tried Flight Sim World… joke, Tried Xplane11’s laminar I don’t know what’s so laminar there but that Cessna in Xplane is out of Warthunder… beta… imho.
Flew in Alpha (MSFS2020 Alpha) the Neo once… not for me.

For people so addicted of simulating flight plans I can only recommend to wait while doing some VFR.

And yes. I have things to complain but I will abstain for now… so much toxic whining after few days after launch… meh.


Would’ve been nice to enjoy it; but a bit hard to do that when you can’t even get your flight controls to work.

Remember, those products working smooth out of the box are version 7 or 9 or 12 of products normally. How often do you get a version 1 of anything. And technically, this is version 1 of a new flight simulator. Not like P3D with FSX code, etc. This is from ground up. And pretty sure any version 1’s aren’t as great as you say or they wouldn’t have hotfixes and patches or NEW versions of the product. I’m also a developer and no matter how much you want things to be smooth, with the variety today, that’s impossible. And although buggy, i still think this is a good first release and as long as they update the issues, this will be the best flight simulator visually we have to date.


There will likely always be bugs and no initial release is flawless. But a lot of these issues are completely unrelated to there being a variety of hardware platforms, nor finding some edge case use scenario or anything like that.

Fuel burn rates and range being off by a factor of 2, autopilot controller tuning leaving a lot to be desired, VNAV not being finished, knob selector increments being bugged on common hardware… these are all things that would have been blatantly obvious before release. I really can’t give those a pass.

Me too, playing on the Amiga.

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Amiga? Nice. Ever play F/A-18 Interceptor?


I think people have unrealistic expectations and dont really understand what market MSFS2020 comes in.

Look at WoW, no one complains when the expansion comes out that the end game raid isn’t out already because everyone knows they drip feed content in through the life cycle. Its a work in progress, a platform.

This isnt a single player story driven campaign where a bug can destroy the game by making it unfinishable or ruining the experience of a certain level that then needs replaying when the bug is fixed with the experience ruined due to knowing what is going to happen already. This is a game with endless replayability, in fact its not really a game or a sim its a PLATFORM. Releasing it now in what is a perfectly playable state for the MAJORITY of people (yes the majority can play this, without game breaking issues and are enjoying it) was the right thing to do.

The launch could have gone smoother but quite frankly i would still consider it a smooth launch regardless, i’ve seen triple A releases that were far FAR less ambitious with far worse launches and issues; what we have now is what most people should have anticipated from launching a next gen game, today.

People really need to chill out; not long from now we’ll have a much less buggy game on this phenomenal platform with all the seatbelt buttons and switches you could dream of included in your study level airbusses.

Try to remember you’d pay a good £13 just to watch a 2 hour movie at the cinema; you really have not been ripped off… When you consider that some of the people raising the roof have the game on game pass; you got your moneys worth the moment you saw a cloud.



And F15 Strike Eagle, and F117A Stealth Fighter.

Ahhh memories :slight_smile:

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Too bad this site doesn’t come with a chell specker. I’m pretty sure it’s spelled “winner”.