Shared cockpit/multiplayer

[Ramasurinen]

I’d like to chime in again here, as someone that long ago developed an aircraft specifically for FSX’s shared cockpit.

Developing a shared compatible plane back then was no joke, and full of weird issues and pitfalls, but that was really just incredibly easy compared to what Asobo and Working Title are up against now.

This is one of those things that kind of has to be perfectly planned and executed the first time, and has to be open and extensible enough to handle some really weird edge cases and unforeseen future needs, yet still be rigid enough to not collapse under its own weight.

I don’t think this will be a system that can easily evolve over time like some others in the sim, which is why it may be taking a long time to get its foundation right.

Then they have to consider how to handle all the existing aircraft, many of which will contain some code that is inherently unfriendly to a shared cockpit. Do they attempt to force compatibility by limiting variable and event spamming, which is sometimes essential to achieve some important result in the sim? Can that even be done without breaking certain aircraft? I can’t even imagine how to pull that off. If that isn’t possible, then do they lock them out of that mode until they can be updated? They face many hard decisions here.

As Jörg mentioned in a recent interview, the problem likely isn’t so much the purely steam gauged planes, they could probably do that now, it’s the glass cockpit avionics that will be keeping them up at night.

Back in FSX nobody really expected those to work perfectly, or even at all in shared cockpit, but these days that will be a requirement. Perfectly sharing a G1000 setup for instance will likely require an exponential jump in data that needs to be synchronized, without any bugs or mistakes, and without saturating connection bandwidth, something that can happen from just a single badly managed variable, and all without disrupting the already huge bandwidth requirements of the sim. Again, that is no easy thing to implement, nor debug.

An additional consideration may be the desire or need for more than two players to connect and operate a single aircraft this time around, which could turn even tiny, livable issues into showstoppers.

The opportunities Shared Cockpit can provide are immense though, and in my opinion well worth the effort in the long term. I met someone randomly in FSX multiplayer one night in 2007 who ended up becoming a lifelong friend. I taught him the basics of flying and navigation in Shared Cockpit over the following year, and he became so hooked on it that he then went on to get his PPL and eventually buy his own plane. Even went to his wedding a few years later.

So, suffice it to say nobody wants to see native Shared Cockpit working again more than me, it’s just a fantastic experience, but I have some idea of the challenge they’re facing and I don’t envy them. It will take a lot of time and patience. I’m looking forward to seeing what they come up with though, even if it’s simplified to start with.

Cheers.

[GunnerRat]

@Alizuka Hi mate - yes, sadly its exactly that. A “working prototype” that is not actually working with no priority given to it despite all this and 5 years of “updates” that tell us again and again that “its very hard to make”. Yes we know that and appreciate the hard work, really I think we all do, but it really just seems like it isn’t going to happen - and I don’t think it will.

I would have more empathy at this stage if there was a roadmap for it…a tangible goal and real update detailing when it will be done and how it is actually progressing…maybe they can consider this approach?

It just seems like instead - the “shared cockpit can” gets kicked down the road, maybe for MSFS 2040? See you in another 5 years with us all still pretending that it will ever be a thing and the update being “its very hard to do but we have a working prototype!”.

[MaxMach0]

Why they just let the 2nd player connects to the host plane just like ”steam link remote local multiplayer” works?

No need to complex syncro, just streaming the entire host plane and maybe render locally just the world. And send back control inputs.

Before someone talks about huge bandwidth, check steam link.

[Batterby76]

How would that work for console users?
It has to be usable and cross playable for every platform

[MaxMach0]

Why not? You can use a tv dongle to connect to steam link, why not using a entire console?

[JamAir421]

@GunnerRat

I would have more empathy at this stage if there was a roadmap for it…a tangible goal and real update detailing when it will be done and how it is actually progressing…maybe they can consider this approach?

Saddly I feel those days are not comming back, and it is us as consumers (including myself) that are to blame. Not (necessarily) the Developers.

We need to keep in mind that there is (or at least used to be) competition between consumers and buisinesses (dev.), not just business to business.

That competition used to be ‘the comsumer holds onto thier $ until a stable, working (not perfect) product is delivered’.

Over the past few years the consumer has increasingly let the devs gain the upper hand in the relationship. Our hand has been given up by the desire for never ending ‘Public ‘Alpha’, Beta….’Zed’’, ‘Early Access’, ‘Partners’ access, take you pick of marketing terms.

This is not a dig against MicroSobo specificaly, though I feel they should be included as an example. They are by no means the greatest ‘offenders’ for lack of a better term. I also don’t ‘fault’ them in the gernal sense, business is business.

What you outline is very true. However, the current consumers never ending desire for never ending ‘advanced access’ has become the ‘norm’. Devs don’t and/or won’t give timelines, roadmaps or updates simply becasue they don’t have to. They already have our $ and/or commitment to give them.

To a greater or lesser extent, we as consumers have made a determination, consiously or unconciously, to give up our $, expectations and standards (i.e. control in the relationship) for access to known unfinished features, fixes, improvments, products. Busineses are just giving us exactly we (knowingly) are willing to pay for…’no promises’.

[GunnerRat]

Hi Jam,

Thanks for your well thought out reply. I agree with it to an extent. Yes we have become an inpatient mess as a globalised society - but actually plenty of games still do offer roadmaps and one most only look on steam for that, though granted they are probably getting rarer.

I also disagree that it is the consumers who per se, “let the devs gain the upper hand”. Consumers are easily exploited and this is well known within the realms of social psychology (see Bauman for example). A consumer can easily say “no” we aren’t releasing it in early access and still do incredibly well, the new GTA will be perhaps the extreme example of this.

“However, the current consumers never ending desire for never ending ‘advanced access’ has become the ‘norm’.” - You are right in general, but not all of us. I value consistency and openess personally and would rather wait for the proper finished product before buying and my wishlist on steam would prove that hehe.

We the consumers are easily parted with cash when it comes to digital products for sure…but the industry merely exploits that and should know better and stop over promising and under delivering, just like arguably what has happened here even though granted this is not about it being early access.

I suppose this entire mess of a 5 year thread should only reinforce a new position - ’no promises’ isn’t good enough and I will not be buying anything from this company ever again. But of course we are all free to spend as we please, but I often find that even these hyped up games are things I can live without - this game, sadly - is just another example of this and I have probably spent far too much time on this forum and money on this game too haha!

They said they have a working prototype of a shared cockpit that doesn’t actually work…sorry, I call BS on that one as it makes no sense and all we hear is “its hard to do” for the last 5 years. I would apologise if proven wrong and be back for MSFS 2035 just in case - Yeah?!

Anyway, more important things to focus on I guess. Merry Christmas one and all - including the MSFS team despite my thoughts on shared cockpit.

[JamAir421]

Thanks Gunner, sorry for the VERY late reply. Just haven’t been much into the forums of late (for a lot of the very reasons we are discussing here) and hadn’t noticed. I understand and agree to one degree or another with all of your points. To be clear I am not saying that all games, Dev., etc. have adopted this model. However, the trend towards it is clear. For the FS gerne and related products I do still hold that it is the norm.

As noted I am guilty of falling into this trap myself. I still have not purchased FS2024 because it, to this day, does not (and I assume never will) nativly include reasonably working AI/ATC. To me there is no point is repaying for what I did not get the first go simply becasue it is wrapped in a prettier package. When I saw the disaster that 2024 was at launch I was glad I stuck to it.

At some point I suppose 2020 will go away and at the point I will have no choice but ot move over. Until then and given that Asobo provides NO updates regarding the status of internal traffic/ATC and a lot of other important (to me) things, I’ll stick with what I have for the time being. Shared cockpit is just another area where scilence on very long standing requests/promises from and to our group, speaks volumes to me.

That said what did I do after (and becasue of) the above? Turned right around and jumped straight into 2 different ‘Early Access’ ATC programs. While I don’t regret either in a general sense, it has reminded me that sticking with the ‘wait and see’ approach is the best thing I (we) can do to maybe balance things out and hold Dev’s a little more accountable for what they provide and promise.

As you said in your opening, I also thank you for a reasoned and honest response, it is refreshing (at least for me) to read replys such as yours. A little late for Merry Christmas but I’ll send everyone an advance on this year. Who knows, maybe this will finally be the one and we can all share a cockpit at some point.