Should MS/Asobo Take the Global Microchip Shortage into Account?

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What seems like a lifetime ago, before the release of MSFS, there was a lot of speculation around the PC specs that would be required to manage the programme once it was released. It took some time before MS published the minimum requirements and when that appeared I, not being in any way knowledgeable about how a PC functions beyond the fundamentals, sought advice from various quarters mostly online forums like A2A, Avsim and ORBX. Accordingly I commissioned a new PC build to the best spec that I could afford, the basics of which were:

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600
MB: MSI B450 Pro Carbon AC
GPU: MSI AMD Radeon RX5700XT 8Gb VRAM
RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 3600 - 2 x 8gb
PSU: Corsair TXM 850W Gold +80 Semi Mod
Case: Bequiet Pure B 500ATX Mid (loads of cooling)

After downloading the programme on the launch date (14hrs worth) the sim worked like a dream with all settings on ultra. The AMD Software information showed a great big green ‘tick’ in the performance stats. I have added a further 16Gb of RAM along the way. Over time and as the programme has grown and become more and more sophisticated the experience has degraded significantly and at one point became unplayable with the GPU at a constant 99%, hotspot temps exceeding 100° and frequent short period black screens. I now have the graphics at Medium settings and frame rates capped at 40FPS in order to have any sort of experience at all. The AMD Software now shows my system as ‘Marginal’ and recommends that an RX6900XT GPU and a Ryzen 9 CPU to run the sim properly.

As I am sure we are all aware the global microchip shortage has made it almost impossible to source PC components and if you can find them the sharks are raising prices to impossible and dare I say, obscene levels. I have found one RX6900XT for sale – priced at more than £4K and RX6700XT are around for over £1K; way beyond my budget! I have read that the shortage is probably going to impact component supply for up to 2 years.

My question is, should MS/Asobo take this phenomenon into account as they progress the sim along the development road and what could they do to mitigate the effects?

Dave

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Some think you might get some of that anyway as MS/Asobo try to shoehorn FS2020 into the Xbox. There are threads here where some think we will lose performance so Xbox doesn’t get embarrassed with poor performance. I personally doubt that but who knows?

Pretty sure they understand the performance issues across the range of hardware people use, and chip shortages. Performance differences are an issue that has dogged programmers since there were systems with different performance levels.

There is already a solution, though. Anyone with performance issues can just turn down the various settings that impact performance the most. Use Developer Mode with the frame rate display to see the impacts. We all want to run “Ultra” on everything but the reality is that is very demanding and some compromises must be made especially in VR.

No idea about MS/Asobo but many devs include settings that can max out current hardware so their software is more future-proof and adaptable. It is not unreasonable or a problem to not be able to max out everything even on a best of everything system.

Something else to keep in mind is that Microsoft issued some problematic Windows updates, Nvidia has put out some badly bugged drivers, and Asobo did a number on sim performance that has taken two patches to mostly fix. There has been a lot of churn recently in software updates that has really hurt performance - but again, we’ve gotten a lot of that back too.

It’s a difficult time but hopefully things will settle out a bit soon.

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Not related to your question but the gpu running at 99% isn’t a bad thing that just means it gets fully utilised. But reaching those high temps is an issue and is probably the cause of performance issue’s due to throttling. Either the pc case doesn’t have great airflow there isn’t enough fans.

Obviously the ambient temperature of your location has an effect but I run my i9-9900k with an overclock and also the GPU and never seen higher than 80 on the hottest of summer days. but my case is really open inside with great airflow.

With dx12 being used in msfs soon maybe we will see better performance as maybe it’s possible the devs have held back knowing dx12 is coming and maybe we will see more performance improvements.

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It won’t make any difference to anything. They’ve done their Xbox/DX12 optimisations and that’ll all help regardless of whether you’ve got a RTX 3080 or not.

A growing number of people do have an RTX 3000 series graphics card and that figure will clearly grow over the next year. A graphics card of at least the power of a 3080 will become the norm over the next few years so it does make sense for Asobo to invest time in making ray tracing a thing in the simulator, and other higher end eye candy visual effects.

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I am hopeful this shortage will be over with in 1 to 2 years time. As long as there is demand, eventually suppliers will step up. Heck even washing machines are hard to find! lol

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Now I’ve truly read everything.

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I’m a little surprised to see no one suggest this, but what’s happening to the OP post doesn’t sound right. I have a PC that’s not 1/3 the strength of that and it’s been running fine since day 1. Yes the performance has see-sawed a bit with the updates: some made it better, others worse. But what he’s describing sounds way beyond that and not right at all.

I would consider an investigation into add-ons, background programs, etc. And if none of that works, a reinstall.

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Yeah, the 100C thing and thermal throttling are indicative of something really wrong. Video cards shouldn’t get that hot.

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Latest i head is it will go into next year possibly year after that.
They were supposedly aware of a potential supply issue a while before it became an issue, I believe there are more factories in the process of being built to help.
They have to expand especially with the push for electric cars.

Wasn’t helped that one of the factories that make semiconductors burnt down.

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I think they have something for it already. This menu here.

image
image725×408 37 KB

I’m sorry, I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking, or what you expect Asobo to do. Do you want them to lower the quality globally so people stuck on lower end hardware get better FPS on max settings? Do you want them to send you a free 6900XT and Ryzen 9 5900X? Also, 30 FPS with consistent frame times should be the goal, not 60 as it is unattainable on this gen hardware with high settings.

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Those are very solid specs. The only upgrades I might consider:

B550 or X570 motherboard
Add 16GB of RAM (same spec/brand/timings)

You don’t mention having an SSD, but the 550 or 570 chipsets both support PCIe 4.0 bandwidth for an NVMe M.2 SSD
 that’s a good upgrade to consider as well.

(Nice case by the way!)

Aren’t you glad you built that back then? In today’s market that same rig (if you could find a GPU) would cost loads more to build. The upgrades mentioned won’t break the bank, and all components are available at reasonable prices.

The Radeon software is absolute junk. I deleted it from my system, and run a legacy driver only for the 5700XT: 20.10.1

My suggestion? Delete the Radeon software completely. You’ll probably pick up performance. (Use the mainboard’s BIOS to tweak the fan settings.)

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The information that I have gleaned from the AMD website is that the card is designed to run at Junction Temps of up to 110. Their claim is that, by installing multiple temp sensors on the card (as opposed to their claim that most cards only have one or two sensors) it can safely run at higher temps which, they claim, improves performance. True or not I don’t know.

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Thanks for responding. Firstly I am already on the path of reducing settings to improve performance and that really is what prompted my question - if updates continue to be implemented at the current rate how long will it be before folks find themselves up against the buffers? I certainly hadn’t appreciated the impact that the various Windows etc updates have had (although NVidia drivers won’t affect me AMD have had their moments too!) and that gives rise to some optimism.

Thanks again

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Microsoft should tell bill gates to stop buying all the chips for his vaccines :sweat_smile:

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I think that you make my point for me Mobias 7. Folks might wish to upgrade to an RTX 3000 series card to enable the sim to function well - but where will they get one from? If the current shortages do last for 2 years is there a danger that the sim will outstrip current systems that can’t be upgraded because of the lack of hardware? I don’t know, don’t entirely understand the impacts or potential mitigations and posted here in an attempt to have a better grasp.

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Some excellent advice there and I thank you for it. My storage is currently on a PNY CS900 960GB 2.5SSD SATA 3 and I have already added a further 16Gb of RAM. So 32Gb now and running most of the time at around 40% and VRAM at around 60%. With all settings on Medium I was seeing temps of 85-90 but with Anti Aliasing upped to TTA I was again seeing 100 plus - which suddenly and instantly dropped to 85. Radeon Software? I will most definitely act on that piece of advice and I will investigate the motherboard options.

Do you have any thoughts on MSI Afterburner?

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I don’t know the true spec comparison but on my mobo a SATA drive is 4 times slower than an m.2. I wasn’t expecting that big of a difference but I measured with some test saves/reads.

Someone else mentioned your mobo supports m.2 but that won’t change GPU temps or most other settings. But for anything the program needs in terms of disk access, 4x performance is available.

Philosophically, programs will just get more complicated and will likely need more and more compute power. Simulations are notorious for compute power demands. It just goes with the territory. But Microsoft can’t reasonably take FS2020 down a path where performance degrades significantly without giving users some way to adjust things back. Obviously there can be temporary performance impacts like the ones we’ve seen recently when things just get buggered.

I’m surprised the AMD cards run that hot. Are you aggressive with your fan curves? I’m running Nvidia but I have my fans at 100% by 50C and have extra fans changing the air out of my box to keep things cool. It’s a little louder but my system does not thermal throttle - ever. I don’t know that Nvidia is measuring junction temps where this is apples to apples but I’d still do some tests with your case sides off and fans at 100% at least by 70-80C or something to get those temps down. I do know thermal throttling can really degrade performance with Nvidia cards and see no reason that wouldn’t also be true with AMD.

Should also ask if you are running latest firmwares and bios all around. Mobo drivers and bios can also impact performance. Windows has had some significant updates recently that brought performance hits. Windows 10 may have been part of the progression you’ve seen. I know on my system, just in the last 2-3 months, Windows, FS2020, and Nvidia all had significant performance problems introduced during updates and some issues seemed to be where Windows issues compounded FS2020 issues and all were compounded by Nvidia issues. There’s crosstalk happening.

I’m only mentioning for example and not encouraging you to do this but on my system, even rebuilding Windows from my original (almost 5 year old) install media didn’t fix my system for the Nvidia issues I was having. Only when I downloaded the latest windows.iso and rebuilt Windows yet again was I able to put my Nvidia performance issues to bed.

You made a comment about how are people expected to get new chips with the shortage but another way to look at it is why should software stop evolving? The older software and simulations that many systems can run just fine is all still available. FSX is still on Steam. P3D is still available. X-Plane and whatever others are also still available. And, despite the shortages, new chips can still be bought. Right now it takes more effort - stock alerts at vendors or maybe not buying a preferred brand - but those who are determined can usually get what they need if they work at it.

You will only be able to get the performance out of your hardware that it’s capable of. Once you have the system performing optimally, that’s all you’ll get out of it without upgrading hardware. And it’s important to remember that FS2020 was deep in final testing and planned for imminent release before the pandemic and before the chip shortages.

Sometimes life just throws you a curve.

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I think you’ll find a few comments specifically about Afterburner on the forum, but in general, software that monitors performance in the background can hurt frame rates and cause CTD events. I have stopped every background process I can identify that is not essential to running the OS or MSFS.

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I am using a stable driver - 20.10.1 from October 2020 - for the 5700XT, and have locked down Windows updates in Group Policy. I am running Win 10 Pro Version 1909 (April 2020) OS Build 18363.1440

While I cannot claim to have zero issues, my system has been - for the most part - quite stable from the beginning
 certain updates to MSFS notwithstanding. :slight_smile:

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Have you tried getting those temperatures down and if so was there any difference?

Other than that, hopefully someone else has answers. I do sympathize the pain. Been there. Good luck!