When is a third-party product 'defective' enough to warrant a refund? And who's liable?

[JakTrax78]

All,

I’m fortunate enough to live in the UK: a country whose consumer laws are particularly strict and transparent.

I’m fully aware of my country’s laws (which in this instance favour me) but refunds are sometimes subjective — and often a matter for conscience — so I’m wondering what the community’s thoughts are re my case.

On 29th April I purchased ACO Design Studio’s Songshan Airport (RCSS) from the in-sim Marketplace. Downloaded, installed; and managed a few nice flights into and out of there. However in the days following my purchase, I noticed a number of islands across the world were sprouting enormous, 6,000ft high buildings (see image below, taken in the Bahamas). Since they feature collision detection, they make it impossible to land at any of the airports affected (and there may be many more I’ve not yet uncovered).

I had purchased a handful of third-party airports in the preceding weeks, so I studied the buildings closely to see if I recognised them from any particular scenery, and felt they looked rather like the custom examples surrounding Songshan airport. So I uninstalled Songshan… and the gargantuan buildings were gone. My first action was to contact the developer, who conceded that it’s definitely their scenery creating the monstrosities — however they couldn’t offer a solution and eventually stopped communicating with me. I then turned to Microsoft, since it is their store that assumes liability for the sale (under UK law). I was given three separate steps to try to resolve the issue: deleting the content.xml file; deleting all .dat files; and deleting my rolling cache. I tried all three but the issue persisted. In further correspondence, it was recommended I try a full sim reinstall — something I’d actually done by chance earlier in the week to try to resolve the issue of MSFS not closing properly.

In the end, none of Microsoft’s support’s recommendations worked. So I have an add-on I cannot realistically install because it upsets other areas of the world. Microsoft said they have not had this issue reported before. However I bought the product expecting it to have a harmonious relationship with my other add-ons.

perhaps my biggest issue is the language used by Microsoft’s support team. In two-and-a-half years, I’ve had four refunds processed, for products that simply haven’t work as expected (all on Xbox, I might add, and none in the past 12 months). This was brought up and apparently isn’t acceptable, with MS describing these refunds as “goodwill gestures”. Obviously any action to address a defective product shouldn’t be considered ‘goodwill’ — you wouldn’t accept a refund for a TV that didn’t turn on as a ‘goodwill gesture’, and you wouldn’t expect them to refuse to refund because the issue hadn’t been reported by anyone else.

So, irrespective of what the law says, from a moral standpoint, should the onus be on me to find a solution to this problem? A solution that might take weeks of installing and reinstalling to remedy? Or is it a reasonable expectation to have the product fully function alongside my existing add-ons?

Incidentally, I’ve made three further purchases since RCSS, and have had no problems with any of them. I have over 500 third-party aircraft/airports and Songshan is the first and only one to cause me these kinds of problems.

[N316TS]

I don’t think the onus should be on you to find a solution by yourself. You seem to be a tech savvy individual, but not everyone is. A lot of people wouldn’t have the first clue how to troubleshoot something like this. I also think that while a reasonable amount of time should be spent trying to resolve the issue, expecting hours of the customer’s participation in troubleshooting is far too much.

It’s hard to know where to draw the line, but I definitely think that if the product creates giant buildings that make it impossible to land somewhere, that counts. If it’s something that inhibits your ability to operate normally in the sim, that counts. Cosmetic issues are where it gets a lot more difficult. And all of these scenarios come down to the developer’s willingness to work with you and resolve the issue, too.

Ultimately, though, I think all scenarios like this ought to give the benefit of the doubt to the consumer. Especially if those 500 addons were purchased from the place you’re trying to get the refund from.

Regarding finding a solution to your problem, I reported a bug to Zendesk many years ago. I did an enormous amount of research and presented my findings to them. They dismissed it all; I’m not even sure they looked at it. And that was the end of that. I think Zendesk is a great place for reporting bugs, but my one experience asking for help there left a very sour taste in my mouth.

(By the way, it’s hard to imagine how giant buildings from Taiwan ended up in the Bahamas, unless another developer used their 3D assets, which would be really bad. But I’m sure you tested without addons and ruled that out. This problem reminds me of the giant buildings and runway distance remaining signs at MYNN many years ago.)

[JakTrax78]

Thanks for your opinion.

Yes, the Bahamas sported these behemoths with or without any scenery installed in the region. The Azores, too. And God knows where else…

The fact is, I’ve done what I can, in re-installing and subsequently following Microsoft’s recommendations. When their (and the dev’s) troubleshooting can’t assist, it should not be left to the customer to basically fend for themselves.

There is clearly an issue with this particular scenery, yet those who created and/or support/endorse it don’t want to take responsibility. A week before this purchase, I picked up ACO’s Taoyuan. No problems with that.

If you sell it… you are responsible for it.

[Twodogzz]

I understand it’s the Microsoft Terms of Sale are what matter; And they are different for each country.

So, if your refund request complies with the terms then Microsoft being the seller of the product, must refund your money.

I’m in Australia and our laws are advantageous to the buyer similar to the UK .
Considering the product has what we call a “major defect” then I’d expect a refund without question from the seller (in Australia , anyhow)!

Good luck with your refund!

Get a refund on apps and games bought from Microsoft - Microsoft Support

[davegranstrom16]

So this is why I always try to buy my products through a 3rd party and use PayPal if I can, so more often than not I have a chance of getting refunded if the product is not to my liking. And in general, I’ll wait until the hype has died down and ask consumers to see if the product is still worth buying. Hope you can get it sorted out @JakTrax78!

[JakTrax78]

I’ll get the refund because it would basically be illegal to deny it. Where the law’s concerned I’m already covered. I was more wanting to discuss the parameters by which a product could be considered defective, as well as the attitude of MS support (who seem to think being responsible for products they endorse is somehow ‘goodwill’).

[N316TS]

Yeah, I don’t like that “goodwill gesture” comment they said to you. It sounds like somehow, you’re not actually entitled to that refund, and they’re doing you a favor.

I looked at ACO Design’s products during the Marketplace sale. One of their products was almost 50% off, and I was tempted. They have very high ratings, and a lot of them. What stopped me was their lack of a presence in the 2024 Marketplace. (That stopped me from buying a lot of things, actually.) Also, the tension between Taiwan and its neighbor to the west right now (and that’s about as comfortable as I am talking about that!). I feel relieved that I didn’t buy anything (though I’m still sorry that you did).

[AncientDisc6642]

The reason is 99% certainly because the developers have used a GUID for their buildings that is also a GUID for either another developer’s product, or more likely, a default object.
Changing the GUID will solve the problem, so you could try going back to the developers with that solution.

[N316TS]

Aren’t GUIDs almost always really long strings? I guess if someone was copying an example from somewhere else, this could happen.

[AncientDisc6642]

Typically, the developer has used a “default” GUID from the SDK.

[JakTrax78]

Thanks for your input. I prompted the developer into a reply and they said they will try to address the GUID issue — but with the caveat that it might not fix it.

They say the issue should only manifest if I have third-party scenery active in the affected areas; however it persists even when all local scenery is uninstalled.

Odd that it only seems to affect islands.

[phutyoo]

I’ve gotten refunds on 4 or 5 just blatantly bad add-ons over time from the MP. Usually it’s no sweat. I don’t feel guilty about it or anything they were bad/defective.