2024 is also far more problem than just career mode
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Iām a bit late to the party on this one so Iām responding to old comments now but I think you guys can see eye to eye on this one. With he advertising everyone saw what they wanted to see. Obviously career isnāt the main component of the sim (free flight is) but that doesnāt mean it wasnāt the main marketing focus. Why? Because core simmers would buy the new sim regardless of what the marketing was. In other words, they donāt really need to market it to established simmers. Therefore, career was able to (and did) form the major part of the marketing push because that was the hook for the target audience: people who are curious about simming for whom a structured career would be attractive. I sat somewhere between these two audiences and career certainly pre wanted me from investing in 2020 and waiting for 2024. At the same time as all this we can acknowledge that there would be no sim without free flight or the core sim community. The real question what bearing this has on whether the sim is what we were promised. And for many it is not. This said, the question of whether it will be fixed is reasonable and I also feel Iāve seen enough to believe that it wonāt in fact ever get fixed 
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Yea Iāll agree to that. Letās just say, I actually wanted to try SU2 after about 3-4 months of not using MSFS 2024.
This was my experience:
This was on the Xbox Series X at 1GB connection speed. So I agree that this is concerning. MSFS 2020 absolutely never had such poor performance issues, and continues to be outstanding.
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It might have been pretty stable (although to be fair now I can remember I had one single CTD issue, contrary to what Iāve written above, it was with the VFR map and others also reported it at that time) but systems wiseā¦ Oh laddie, the turboprop physics were even more unrealistic than now (Ng was the same as Np on many aircraft, there was no prop pitch control), we had no helicopters, we had to wait 2 years before a steady flow of quality addons has developed, default airliners had no VNAV, heck, the flight directors on default avionics didnāt function. Frame rates were horrible but steadily improving with every SU. For the first two years the 2020 was on the market I was still on XP11. And that was an even worse nightmare as far as stability and the demand for tinkering and wrenching under the hood were concerned.
Perhaps these people have already learned that you canāt achieve anything in life by complaining endlessly, but you can by accepting facts and helping to improve things.
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Fair. For my part though, unlike your āLast Of Usā analogy, I never intended to use ALL of MSFS. I knew from the beginning that there were features that I cared nothing about. The parts that drew to the sim are the parts that I ultimately ended up playing and enjoying. So, for me, it was more like 90% rather than the 50 from your example, and they were close enough to my expectations to satisfy. Thatās up from about 60% at launch. So, again FOR ME, it has been a good product trending to greatness.
Respectfully disagree. Not complaining doesnāt take you anywhere.
Some of the most major fundamental changes in our society has come from protests, revolutions and endless complaints.
Nothing has ever been changed for the better just by conformity and āaccepting factsā, otherwise weād still be in the Middle Ages.
The same exact logic applies to MSFS 2024. Itās not going to improve if we just accept the way it is. The only way itāll change is by complaining and pushing for change.
Otherwise, if everyone is suddenly nice and helpful, then Asobo and MS will believe they can get away with the current state of MSFS 2024. Itās just how the world works.
So yea, I think people should be vocal about the negative side of MSFS 2024 and while being respectful, we shouldnāt hesitate to speak whatās on our minds. Thatās the only way MSFS 2024 will get better.
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that may apply to some things in life, true, but i dont think it applies when we are talking about business transactions
speaking for myself here, but, if you sell me something that wasnāt as promised, you will be hearing from meā¦ and that is right
i wont accept it just on the grounds that one has to stay positiveā¦ and, again, in my opinion, no one should, because nothing good can come of that
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I see your point, but my post was never about stating that each of you, taken individually, cannot enjoy the sim or part of it.
As I stated in the very first post, in certain cases it is possible to enjoy the sim, and to see its full potential. Some of you, not engaging with career and maybe flying third party aircraft or bug-free ones, on a powerful device, can certainly greatly enjoy the game.
What I think should be acknowledged here is that, from a logical point of view, stating that it is possible to enjoy part of the game, does not take anything away from my main argument.
Nor, by the way, (not replying to you directly here) have I ever asked for help on how to enjoy the sim in its current state.
My argument is that several important features of the game, which were highly advertised and promised on release, are still mostly broken or missing.
Moreover, the progress seen over a fairly long period of time (6 months) concerning many of these aspects is so disappointing to raise questions about the long term future of the sim.
In my opinion this is not acceptable, regardless of what each of you (or me for what matters) is most interested in or bought the game for.
I could have bought the game just to be able to walk around, and be super happy with the footstep sound they just added for all you know. I would still find it necessary to point out that the product we got, and we paid for, is not the one we were promised, and that this is not cool.
It is honestly very hard for me to understand how stuff like the CJ4 sudden (and bugged) price increase, or the PC-24 completely bugged throttle could be introduced in an update which was supposed to improve the disastrous state of the game, not to make it even worse. This shows incompetence and superficiality, or, which would be much worse, complete lack of care.
It is also incomprehensible to me how basic bugs (like the PC-12 oxygen bug) were not fixed in a couple of weeks, with a basic hotfix like the one created by the community. And we are here, 6 months later and several big updates later, with at least 3 patch notes marking it fixed, while it is still broken.
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Gotcha. It was a fumbled release for sure. A lot was promised. Like many here, probably including you, I come with a long history of flight sims, civil and combat. None were this buggy at release. But nor did any come with anything close to scratching my aviation itch like this one. I feel like (and not addressing you at all on this point) users have become so caught up in the flaws that they deny themselves the marvel that this sim offers where it works. Part of my optimistic demeanor comes from the unfortunate fact that I am old. My first sim was 16 color and 480x320. That sim too was a miracle to me. Even so, I never dreamed that we would have what we have now.
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My terrible, awful, completely bugged simā¦
What am I doing wrong? Is it clutching these pearls too tightlyā¦?
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In the US at least, the most fundamental changes have come through the power of the vote - from local school board elections, all the way to the highest levels of government. True change takes time.
In the case of the sim, our only real vote is our wallet.
And thereās a huge difference between protesting (constantly complaining) and actively getting involved in the process. Beta testing is one way. Reporting specific bugs is another. Sharing our experience fixes (even if 3rd party) is yet another - as long as those fixes donāt violate the ToS.
Is it frustrating when problems with the software arenāt fixed quickly enough to meet our individual expectations? Of course it is. How does one react to their own internal frustration? We can rant about things, or we can accept that the sim is not optimized and choose one of three paths:
- Continue ranting.
- Have faith in the process, sharing our concerns with a logical set of critiques.
- Vote with our wallet and move on to another platform (with its own set of positives and negatives) while rueing the day we wasted our hard-earned cash on software that isnāt meeting our expectations.
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lolā¦ I just watched this from the JF forumsā¦ Iām genetically predisposed to love F28 videos.
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Between flying with some problems (FS2020) and not flying at all (FS2024) I seem to perceive a āsmallā difference. 
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They still have not fixed the official heli FM in 2020, its been years! And since most helis in the game has that third party FM as base, most of them has the same stupid fault, for years!
So let me know when they have fixed that, for any of the two games, then we can start talking about getting 2024 working.
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I shouldnāt apreciate what I have, when i buy a falsely advertised game at Ā£70.00 on steam, buy peripherals to be able to play the game, and upgrade my PC in order to play the game, only to receive what is essentially a game in Alpha. Itās shocking and there is no urgency to fix the issues that are being reported. The game should never have been released in its current state, and it certainly should never have been released at that price until it was actually functional as advertised. People like you saying we should be happy with what we have got is why developers are releasing unfinished games at full price. Because people are happy with it.
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To WildmuLqueen.
āPeople like meā - tad insulting.
If you read my responses, I said that FS2024 was released as an Alpha.
I have never defended releasing FS2024 as it was.
You have the option to request a refund.
I try and help people, offer advice and assistance.
I enjoy FS2024 as I limit my use to Free Flight.
Asobo / MS tried to develop a very complex piece of software too quickly.
When released I said it would take 2 years to fix most of the issues - I still stand by that comment.
Remove Asobo / MS from flight sim - what is left?
I treat everyone with respect, and I will assist you if I can.
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Both of you are right to some extent.
All developers will sell what people buy and they will try to do it with the less effort and investment. Unfortunatelly you canĀ“t change the average buyer mindset because we know since MSFS era that the average buyer in our case is a casual player, so most people just expect to have the simple features available. However there is still a group of players which expect higher quality. If you are in this group your lever is to remove your support until things are sorted. You can buy game only when itĀ“s offered at a significant discount, you can avoid beta campaigns or you can avoid reporting bugs for free. Something I learned since MSFS case is that being on the early adopters group leads nowhere from the user perspective and the official promises are just words.
Regarding complexity, I could buy that argument for MSFS, as from the technical perspective it was a completely new and ambitious concept. However the only real technical challenge I see in FS2024 case now is the multicore implementation. The rest is basically the same as before with some steroids and a new scripted campaign. The main problem was the efforts understimation, not the technical complexity itself. MS/Asobo took for granted that old content was going to be āplug and playā and they faced the reality of platform not ready to be backwards compatible. I mean, what did they expect if one of the first things they changed was the SDK? In my opinion that was just a planning error and if they were not able to identify that risk in time and its impact on end users they are simply either not prepared to manage a migration like this one or they donĀ“t care at all about end users. Sorry if I sound rude but I canĀ“t see any other positive outcome out of that.
So situation is that both users and developers will need to learn from the sad experience. My personal opinion as user is that you have to be very very careful when you put money in advance and expectations here. You may get a portion of what was promissed only. The rest will stay at a ānice to haveā status during an undefined period of time. Therefore the best is to hold your money at such undefined state as well until studios show that they are capable to deliver what they advertise. They are the only ones that need to solve this problem, not the users.
Cheers
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The biggest headscratcher for me is how many things that were already fixed in 2020 got regressed in 2024. Itās as if 2024 forked off sometime around 2022 and there was no further communication between the teams after that.
Thereās no reason we should be reporting and waiting to receive fixes for things that were already fixed in 2020 years ago. How does this happen? I work in IT and when we publish a fix, a version gets distributed for all currently supported releases of the software.
Granted 2024 was still in development, but being more proactive means they wouldnāt be wasting time now fixing the same problems again.
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Itās speculation for the most part, but I remember thinking it seemed like SU12 was around the time frame, based on some CJ4 bugs that were fixed around then, yet reappeared in MSFS2024. Iāve done no serious forensic research into this, but it did cross my mind when seeing some discussions on a Discord server.