RANT: Why is the Carenado Seneca rated so highly on the store?

Discussion Hub Aircraft
22

I also bought the Seneca on sale. I was a bit skeptical before buying, but with 30% discount, if we are not too demanding, it worth it, until there is a real good one from other vendors.

I agree a bit with the topic author though, people get excited too quick and give good ratings without testing much. On Youtube I looked for reviews but they all gave very good marks (even the ones which say “I am a commercial pilot”) without much criticism, to the point I suspect they get sponsored.

I find the plane way too sensitive to pitch for example.
Other than that, like said above, people need to know what their expectations are before buying Carenado.
If they want exact numbers like the real plane, they should wait for JF, Milviz etc to release their own.
If they don’t it is a cool plane still.

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23

Since the GTN 750 does not sync with the G1000Nxi the Carenado Seneca is my twin piston to fly with the GTN 750. Quite enjoyable for me.

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24

to delete I made a mistake by answering in the wrong place

25

Hello

Indeed, some aircraft are not what they used to be.
Carenado used to produce good products…like the long awaited Pilatus PC12 .
**I started with FS_2, and in 2015 I switched to X-Plane, and then back to Msfs2020 where I am much more interested in VFR today (without complicating my life with FMS etc etc) **
It’s good to get back to “old school” navigation with the “little needles” :slight_smile:

I bought 2 Carenado products 2 days ago
What a disappointment, especially for the P44-Seminole!
I don’t do all the tests like a test pilot…but when I took off the first time with this P44…
Impossible to turn normally with the ailerons or the rudder (very, very very slow) and moreover, by cutting one of the engines, the plane continued its way very straight. In short, a catastrophe… I can’t believe that Carenado didn’t see this (and Asobo too)! (version 1.7)
As for the M20R…it is so sensitive in the air that you always feel that the atmosphere is constantly turbulent…
In any case, it should not be said anymore that the MSFS planes are still on “rails”. It is so much better in the end!

Good flights :wink:
(HB-JFR)

ps
I have put only one star for the moment

Yes, it’s obvious, transferring the old planes to this new simulator… it must not be a “holiday” for the developers.
Just the aerodynamic configurations…you have to be a physicist to understand it all?

EDIT → SOLVED :heart_eyes:

Dear fellow Pilots

My Corenado PA44 Seminole aircraft is finally flying as it should! -:slight_smile:

In the General Options, under Flight model, I had the historical model active (I don’t know what it clearly means)
//
I chose the “Modern” option!
//
The change is valid only when leaving the flight, so you have to go back to the main “home” menu and start again the choice of the departure place etc.

I did it twice to check.

Why, how, I do not know?
But finally… the plane is controllable normally with ailerons and rudder
(as a reminder, the elevator was ok in the history mode)

In order not to mislead other users
Good flights to all of you

HB-JFR
PapiFs57
J.-François R. :wink:

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

26

I’ve purchased two of the planes and regretted both purchases :frowning:
Wasted nearly $100 dollars as I’ve flown them for maybe 1 hour before I gave up

I thought my first purchase was just bad luck but the second plane was just as bad.

Flight models were sub par compared to fs standard fs planes and way sub par compared to JustFlight planes and the Carenado planes are less efficient so I loose around 10-15 fps when flying them

I will never purchase any of their products again and don’t know if I’ll trust any other developer other than JustFlight as all 3 of their planes are amazing

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27

That’s a good point, but I can’t imagine that you can get a refund?

28

nope; no refunds

29

I don’t think is off-topic but may add more information about Carenado.

The flight model and systems for X-plane Carenados were made by Thranda Designs.

30

If you want a twin, I would recommend the Flying Irons P38.
Also, Milviz has a Cessna 310 twin in the works.

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I don’t know what did you expect from carenado. Make your research before buying? Carenado was never considered as study level.

Anyhow you’re one of the 0,1%. No one is doing what you’re doing usually, people want to fly and it flies well. Everything is functional and it’s very enjoyable to fly.

It’s rated so high because it’s a great plane. Most people just don’t need study level. And most people including me don’t care much how it performs with one engine.
It’s definitely above the default planes and i hope carenado will continue releasing products of similar quality. Not everything supposed to be 100% realistic, the biggest market is in the middle.

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32

I do not think most people do not care about the single engine performance on twins. While all are not test pilots and are looking to put the plane through their paces and complain because it misses the published performance data by 1%, I think most would expect a twin to show some deviation from the flight path when an engine fails, and you would need some corrective control input to overcome the drag of the now dead engine and that feathering the prop would help alleviate said drag. The knowledge on how to handle such a situation is part of flying a twin and should be part if any twin simulation.

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33

The fact is that absolute majority of people don’t know that and they have no idea how it supposed to behave. It seems different for you because you fly irl and most likely your friend circle with whom you talk about MSFS or aviation are all hardcore simmers. It’s like eating in mcdonalds each day and thinking that everyone eats there.
The people who play MSFS are very different. This is why MSFS is so amazing - everyone can play it however they like and the fact is that not everyone needs realistic simulation. Otherwise neither of those military jets would sell and neither of carenado planes would sell.
Carenado is so popular because it’s right in the middle between realistic and arcade and that’s what most people want.

Price also plays a role. For example i gave 5/5 stars for junkers. But if it was priced at 50€ for example, i’d give it 2/5. I also have JF arrow (don’t have carenado’s arrow), but JF is 38€ while carenado is 25€, that’s about 50% difference. So in my opinion both of them deserve a very similar rating.

And i don’t mean anything i say as offensive or something, all i’m saying is that the world is much bigger than you imagine. There should be addons for everyone’s needs, no one is forcing you to buy carenado.

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34

I’m a little shocked that so many people are blaming Carenado for this. This is an MSFS issue. It’s my understanding twin engine dynamics is essentially non-existent in MSFS, there’s not much Carenado can do about it. For instance, differential power effects with twin (or more) engines is essentially unavailable. As far as I know, the thrust of the engines is resolved through the centerline of the plane as if it’s a single powerplant, so, doing what you’re asking for is impossible currently. I don’t know when Asobo intends to address this.

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35

I haven’t gone into much depth with the flight model, but I’ve been following the development of the DA62X mod. The dev mode snippets that the developer has shared have clearly indicated the sim is modeling differential thrust and off-axis forces from twin engine planes.

I suspect the problem is more subtle: I’ve seen occasional complaints that the stock Baron G58 is too overpowered. On initial climb at full power, it can easily climb at over 3,000 fpm. I’ve seen comments from more than one real-world Baron pilot saying the climb rate is excessive. I get the impression that in order to have proper single-engine performance, the total power output per engine needs to be excessively high in MSFS. I’m reluctant to say that with any certainty, because I haven’t tried to tune any of the twin engine flight models. But it’s an observation based on the patterns I’ve seen with the Baron and Seneca.

36

I’ve tested the FlyingIron P-38L by shutting down the right engine, and the flight model behaves pretty close to how the original manual and training video describe. It must be possible to model it, FlyingIron appear to have modeled it to the point where following the instruction in the training material is required to maintain controlled flight and land in single engine practice.

Regarding Caranado products, I agree with the several people who have managed their expectations of Carenado products for MSFS. They do look good, they generally work in MSFS, they are not portrayed deceptively, and I would never expect one of their products to have flight models acceptable to be used to simulate real world training. I don’t believe any current addon for MSFS meets that criteria. Despite the response in the Dev Q&A, it remains uncertain if any addon ever will. I look forward to SU 6 and 7 to see if the core software and SDK develop in the direction to support high fidelity model developers.

Until then, it’s cheaper to thoroughly research all addons prior to purchase. I’ve read that refunds are very rare, and the resulting cost to emotions from buyers remorse appears to be difficult to accept and move past.

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37

So much hate towards Carenado for things that are not their fault. They have to build their planes with the sim… I know there are problems, but they are a capable dev… look at their X-Plane offerings, it is partly the sim side of the sim still being a WIP that causes them problems… I mean we did not even have proper Turbo logic till SU3 or SU4

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38

I am not sure where you are getting this. I’ve had to trim out several multi-engine aircraft as expected on single engine operation.

The whole assigning blame to Asobo or a dev needs to stop. If an aircraft doesn’t operate as expected, the consumer shouldn’t care why, just that a feature isn’t there. It’s up to devs to petition Asobo to add it to the SDK or create custom code based on the fidelity they are seeking in their product IMHO.

There is nothing wrong with offering a product that doesn’t simulate failure modes but it is also fair game to discuss how much we feel that product is worth in return.

I am not speaking directly to any aircraft and I hope this aircraft is released on Xbox so I can pick it up before the sale is over.

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39

Not their fault? I don’t like that characterization but Carenado have decided to provide some really nice 3D models, custom gauges and lighting, autopilot, but otherwise generally stay within the SDK.

Obviously, if a feature works and a core sim update breaks it/changes how it operates that is on Asobo for moving the goal posts and not communicating with 3rd party devs to let them know changes that could effect their aircraft are coming.

Whether this is due to expertise of their staff or a pure business decision it is fair to judge the product accordingly. I agree, Carenado gets too much hate - there are very few great flight models within the sim and Carenado’s certainly exceed the default aircraft IMHO.

40

From the view of the project manager of the CRJ, perhaps I can shed some light on this.

First of all, you have to consider economics. A lot of smaller companies had major problems making the step to MSFS. The moment the sim was announced sales of P3D dropped like a stone. FSX died commercially around 2012. Bigger companies like Aerosoft and PMDG have the resources to handle this but we saw a lot of smaller companies struggling and having problems making the jump. They could not invest easily and had to start with relative simple products to build up the funds to start on bigger projects. Let me be clear, this does not mean Carenado is a small company, it is just a statement on the current state of add-ons. They are indeed far from what we saw for P3D and X-Plane in the last few years.

Many people totally underestimate what a project like the CRJ or DC6 involves. It takes many manyears to finish a project like this and you better have a bucket or two of money because it costs an arm and a leg. I am talking about very serious amounts of money. In total 20 people worked in some way or another on the CRJ. The main modeler spend a year on the project. And to get the quality we wanted means you can’t use cheap labor, you are talking 3r artists that can make serious money with any games studio.

We have also seen a lot new developers and small teams making commercial products. We saw a lot of others making freeware. And a lot of that is simply good and some of it is fantastic. We love the fact our small niche has exploded and that we have to compete with names we never heard about before. That’s good! That means progress!

But it also means the more ‘mature’ market for P3D and X-Plane add-ons is opened up and a lot of people are trying to find their place. And indeed not everything is very good (again NOT speaking about Carenado, but in general). That is how a new equilibrium is made. A product is only stunning when there are others that are less good.

Some of you might know that apart from the CRJ 900/100 that should be available soon we are also working on the Twin Otter. That product is now in beta and that means the weekly updates we did on progress are more or less halted. Now some people asked what exactly was going on with that product so I toook the time to find out what everybody involved did on just a standard day for this project. See here: https://forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?/topic/155894-aerosoft-aircraft-twin-otter/&do=findComment&comment=1058115

I hope it gives you an idea of how large these projects can be and how therefore there is a difference between big teams from big companies and small independent studios. As others have noted, there will be a slew of bigger projects coming online before the end of the year. Developers are still learning what this new sim can do. There is not a single day a developer does not send me something new they found out how to use. Some of it is bloody amazing.

FS (the 32 bit version) took 10 years to grow into the powerhouse it became.
P3D took 6 years to become a fantastic stable platform for high end simulation
X-Plane took decades to become what it is now.

MSFS is a fresh start, made possible by Microsoft and executed by very talented people. Are there issues? Sure. But let’s all remember FSX that was called end of line after SP2 with a list of open issues longer then you and I care to read. MSFS has had more patches and updates then all the previous versions combined. But yes it needs more. And tomorrow we get more.

In the meantime, if you are interested in an add-on, do your research. Do not depend on this forum or Reddit alone. Most developers have their own support forums and there you get help from the people who made the product and there the customers who are unhappy will post. Spend 30 minutes reading, get an idea how the developers are commenting. I have worked on 300 projects and I never had one that made everybody happy. And I never will. Always keep in mind that happy customers fly and unhappy customers post.

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41

Always love hearing dev insights! Hopefully this is a preamble to a CRJ release on Xbox. Just waiting for the black screens issue to be fixed and the higher fidelity products like CRJ, Seneca, Corsair, etc to come on over so I can spend more time flying and less time posting. :wink:

I was just about to use a post from your forums as an example where someone stated the twin otter was awaiting some updates to the core sim to meet your standards (paraphrasing).

Hoping the Xbox love comes soon so you can take my money!

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