RNAV DOCKER - What Does This Mean?

Hmm, we live in different worlds if seems. Here you don’t file for a RNAV departure, you file a route (or in free-route airspace, direct), ATC will assign a departure based on the active runway and the first point in the flight plan. Company I work for works a lot with repetitive flight plans filed days in advance, so you can’t file a departure route that far in advance.

Vectors are never part of a RNAV SID here (or any SID for that matter), only SIDs for non-RNAV equipped aircraft might contain a initial departure procedure followed by “expect vectors to …”. Vectors are never part of the initial part of an SID. RNAV SIDs always start at the departure end of runway.

Clearing someone “RNAV” to a waypoint serves no purpose here, if you are cleared for a RNAV SID, this obviously means that you fly RNAV, if not RNAV equipped you should notify delivery or arrival on initial contact. Flying from present position direct a GPS waypoint is obviously RNAV, so “direct …” is all you need.

We actually don’t fly anything conventional anymore here. BRNAV equipment is required for all IFR flights, some procedures are conventional but thats already in the procedure name, EXAMPLE1A departure is a conventional departure for example, while EXAMPLE1B is a RNAV departure.

I don’t think we are overthinking anything in EASA-land with respect to RNAV departures, I think its way simpler here. You are cleared for a specific departure, you simply fly the departure :joy:. If its an RNAV departure you fly it RNAV, if its a conventional departure, you either fly it conventional or RNAV and crosscheck using raw data.

In any case you just fly the departure you are cleared for without any further nonsense around it. You got the clearance from delivery, you set the departure route, crosscheck during briefing. If no amendments tower clears you for take-off without even mentioning the route to fly after departure. Simple.

This is all pretty close to what ICAO prescribes (exactly how most of the world operates). Thats the whole point, keep it standard, don’t deviate too much from ICAO SARPs, there are also foreign pilots flying around, not speaking / understanding English that well and now having to deal with different phraseology.

The only times we use the phrase “RNAV” is regarding RNAV capability, “Negative RNAV due equipment failure” or “Unable EXAMPLE1A departure due RNAV type” (for example). RNAV approaches are called RNP approaches here, e.g. “Cleared RNP approach, runway …”.

Europe does things one way in this regard and the US does things another. In the US you don’t call out your gate position when getting a clearance and tower/ground does not assign a gate either. In this whole hemisphere we only use feet for altitude and only an East/West to determine flight altitude. No North/South like in Italy. So different. When I fly online in Italy, I adapt, when in England I announce my gate when asking for clearance.

Apparently, you are trying to say, in the third paragraph, that the US must be wrong because the rest of the world does something different, and you are entitled to that opinion as silly as it may be. I guess we can change from hood to bonnet too.

As to the foreign pilots not speaking/understanding English, everything you say to them would be a different phraseology. We have many pilots from Latin America who don’t seem to have much of a problem.

On a side note, starting a reply by saying “I don’t think we are overthinking” and then writing 4 paragraphs on what you think about what you are not overthinking is not very convincing.

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Oh boy, you think that the “handholding through daily lives” is a thing in NA and not in Europe. That is almost comical. Remember, in Europe the governing agency ASSIGNS a departure. You only get to plan the route. Not a very good example of why things might be the way they are.

Not entirely, there are obviously only a certain number of waypoints to join the en-route segment. You have to file the route via SID exit points and STAR entry points other wise the flight plan gets rejected (SID / STAR limit exceeded), you could add a departure or arrival to the flight plan, but why would you? If runway changes or you get a different runway assigned the SID changes. Best to leave it open. Obviously ATC is not clearing you for a entirely different SID than for your first en-route point.

Honestly I really don’t care, I’m not flying in the US anymore. I’m just saying that we have ICAO for a reason, to keep things standard. For international pilots, occasionally flying somewhere its important to have things as close to standard. Of course there are differences here and there, Italy is a good example of that, being north - south orientated it makes sense to use N-S instead of E-W system.

I’m obviously not talking about a latin-American pilot flying in US day in day out. Same vice versa, it happens often that American pilots misunderstand phraseology on this side of the pond, sometimes leading to incidents. Thats why I don’t understand why there are countries deviating from standard ICAO phraseology, I wouldn’t think its safer. ICAO phraseology has many barriers built in to prevent miscommunication based on many studies.

I’m explaining why it is different, and in my opinion, simpler here when it comes to RNAV departures. Thats not overthinking.

The reason for this phraseology is actually runway / FMC programming verification. It’s not exactly that you’re being cleared to fly a departure; as you point out, that was already part of your IFR clearance. Nor are you exactly being cleared direct anywhere.

This phraseology / procedure was adopted when RNAV departures with runway-specific routing became common. For instance, on this departure out of KLAX, off 25R you go to DOCKR, but every other runway has its own initial fix to start this departure.

A threat was identified: if a crew has the wrong departure runway selected in the box (either an initial programming error, or the result of a last minute runway change), after takeoff their flight guidance will take them to the waypoint for a different runway, likely causing a separation loss / collision risk.

To mitigate this, a final verification procedure was adopted: when these departure procedures are in use, a takeoff clearance will include the first fix for that runway. “Alaska 621, RNAV DOCKR, cleared for takeoff runway 25L” is a reminder that an RNAV-off-the-runway procedure is in use, and gives me the opportunity to visually verify the correct first fix is selected as I respond to a takeoff clearance. We both usually point to it.

Is this overly redundant? Perhaps. But it speaks to safety culture; if over decades of use on hundreds of departures every day it traps even one error and saves a midair, were those couple extra seconds expended on each flight wasted? No.

Its a bit overly redundant if you ask me. Then you should also recheck altimeter during line-up. Maybe its incorrectly set and you’ll fly into a mountain after take-off. In fact you should re-check everything before departure, you can stretch it as far as you want of-course. If all FMS entries (e.g. runway and departure route) are confirmed by both crew members and points crosschecked with departure plate during briefing, I think there isn’t that much risk of taking the wrong departure, the risk has already been mitigated.

This ignores the common occurrence of a last-minute runway change. Of course there are checklists for that; naturally, making something a checklist item means no crew will ever miss it again, right? :wink:

Then there’s the fact that it also serves as a useful crosscheck for the controller.

I personally do verify both heading and altitude (against TDZE) when taking a runway… technique only, of course.

Could mitigate this with SOPs, it doesn’t happen very often here anyway. If it does, we simply don’t accept a last minute runway changes or inform ATC that we need time to prepare. Then revise FMS set-up, confirm and brief + crosscheck from the start. That is proper Threat & Error Management.

Certainly… and one of the SOPs is this verbaige included in a takeoff clearance, yes?

You seem resistant to the very basic premise of all of human factors: the inevitability of human error. We know that every human in existence can and does make errors on every single flight, no matter how good their intentions. You know - whether or not you’ll admit it - that at least once in your life, you’ve accepted a clearance that in retrospect you should have “unabled.” I’ll bet you’ve even been distracted at the right instant and forgotten a checklist. Because… you’re human. If you’re new to the profession and that hasn’t happened to you yet, don’t worry… it will.

This procedure is a dirt-simple, last-ditch opportunity to trap the sort of error that pilots commonly make, in circumstances that potentially render it more consequential than usual. It does no harm. In the cost/benefit analysis… what are the cons to this verbaige?

On the other hand, if it’s used for decades on hundreds of departures every single day and it saves even one crew one time… isn’t that a good thing?

I’m just trying to understand why it is a procedure in FAA-land but not in EASA-land (or enforced by ICAO). I just think its not so significant, at least here. Maybe there are other mitigations in place which are not common in US? Maybe some different cockpit procedures which are common here, Threat & Error Management. Limit last minute runway changes. I don’t know, I have never read this being a significant safety concern on this side if the pond.

ICAO wise its not allowed to include departure instructions into take-off clearance in the first place, it must be two separate transmissions. For my second job I’m working a lot with TEM, risk assessments, which obviously include a lot of human factors + being a pilot for 15 years including 7 years as commander on various aircraft types. I certainly made my share of mistakes :wink:. I’m more concerned about the deviation from ICAO SARPs and standard phraseology.

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Well, the reason for deviation from standards is always a fair question. As a baseline, it’s worth noting that deviations from a standard can be acceptable, valuable, and safety-enhancing, depending on circumstances. The idea of a standard is that it’s normally the best practice; but that doesn’t mean there aren’t sometimes reasons to modify a procedure. If you’ve been around the industry for any length of time, you’ve certainly seen standards change. Clearly this isn’t license for anyone to do whatever they want; consideration must be given to whether the safety benefit of modifying a procedure outweighs the negatives of deviating from an existing standard - the “cost / benefit analysis.”

What you need to understand about this verbaige is that it was instituted when these RNAV-off-the-runway procedures were first created, back in the early 2000s. Prior to this, a departure was either flown as a heading, or direct to a fix. The concept of complex procedures involving multiple close-in turns off closely spaced parallel runways was new, because the technology was just becoming commonplace enough in a majority of airline aircraft to make use of it.

So, two obvious threats here: newer equipment / required tolerances (there are always growing pains when humans have to adopt the use of new technology), and decades-old habit patterns of much of the commercial pilot population at that time. These two factors equaled a risk that was deemed higher than acceptable that a crew would eventually mis-program the FMC. There are a number of easily identifiable scenarios in which this could happen.

As a result, it was decided that a simple last verification would be made during the takeoff clearance; typically the last thing that happens before takeoff. This verbiage is not a clearance or a departure instruction by the way, and thus does not violate the ICAO standard of minimizing multiple instructions in a takeoff clearance… it is a simple final verification that the controller, the pilots, and the FMC are all in agreement about where the airplane is going. It does not exist at every airport using RNAV procedures, only at high-density airports with complex simultaneous parallel departures very little extra spacing. The ones that come to mind are KLAX, KATL, and KDFW. Does KORD have it too? Maybe.

I was new in my first airline check airman position at this time, and the whole thing received a lot of attention. This is not some backwards procedure in lieu of threat and error management; it IS an application of TEM. A threat was anticipated, and a procedure was implemented to recognize and trap an error with the potential to be a higher than normal safety risk. That’s exactly how TEM is supposed to work. There’s no reason to expect it to be constrained to the cockpit only, and in this case there’s added benefit to involving ATC as well.

In the final analysis, this seems a procedure of obvious value at basically no cost. It doesn’t meaningfully change standardization. It’s difficult to understand what exactly you see as a negative here?

Apart from the use of non-standard phraseology (ICAO wise) I don’t see anything negative about it. Just fail to see the point of this procedure, here in Europe there basically isn’t any difference between a RNAV SID and conventional SID. With the introduction of RNAV procedures we don’t all of a sudden see more close-in turns. In many cases the conventional departure procedure just got a RNAV overlay. Besides we also fly conventional departures using RNAV, just crosschecking everything raw data. Still makes me wonder, what is so different between an EASA or FAA RNAV departure. Here a RNAV departure is just an ordinary departure, there is nothing special about it, its a departure, you program it into the FMS, you confirm it with the other pilot, you brief it and crosscheck it against the departure plate, should anything change you start all over :joy:. Not much different from a conventional departure apart from the RAIM check.

There a lot in this topic so forgive me if it was mentioned, but KLAX is often using a vectors based departure procedure IRL (much like KORD), in which case it makes perfect sense IMO, to provide the instruction “RNAV DOCKR” (or DLREY on the north side) since that’s the only point one is cleared direct to. After that, traffic will expect their continued routing via vectors from ATC once contacting departure. This may or may not conform to the SID of course.

If that is the case you could drop the phrase “RNAV”, its common sense that direct to a RNAV waypoint is flown RNAV.

Perhaps, but I tend to think there’s probably a good reason to do that, or they wouldn’t.

I don’t know, its not in accordance with ICAO phraseology. Maybe its different in the US, but here any direct is flown under RNAV. RNAV literally means area navigation, which is flying from present position direct to a waypoint.

The reason they don’t do it is that this verbaige will never be used with a vectors based departure. The whole meaning of the verbaige is that you’re on an RNAV procedure, and your first fix is DOCKR. It would never be used if you had a clearance limit of DOCKR (which is about 5 miles off the runway and so wouldn’t make sense anyway.)

the first named waypoint is not necessarily the first waypoint. there may be an intercept, etc. example:

as you can see “rnav gritz, 9L cleared for take off” is not direct gritz

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