Your description is perfect and is exactly what we have all been saying. I think the use of the word ‘stall’ is a difference in era and location. I have talked with plenty of European trained pilots in particular that use “stall” only to describe the moment of airflow separation, while it is common in north America to teach new pilots that the moment the stall horn starts to chirp, treat it as a stall. We tend to use more generalizations over here. While you guys are very technically precise. I think the key here is that we want the student to understand that planes are designed to fly, not drive. Therefore, get it off the ground at the slowest safe speed and set it down at the last moment of lift. (obviously, runway conditions, wind, and pilot proficiency are all factors as well)
Going back to when I was learning, terminology of taildraggers was still used interchangably with students. Most tailwheel light aircraft have the wings in a stall AOA when sitting on all three wheels and the recommended technique in most is to ‘stall’ a three point landing.
Might be, very strange to call something a stall when it really isn’t though. The definition of a stall is exceeding the critical angle of attack, the point where airflow separation occurs. But thats that point out of the way then.
Stallwarning horn activates 5/10 kts above the actual stall so I won’t classify that as a stall either. On that topic in my opinion hearing the stall warning during flare would be too far already for me. Maybe type specific.
Pretty clear here. Giving the poor guy a starting point to help him get an idea of the different speeds of different aircraft, not quoting POH. And nobody said anything about 50ft threshold crossing. The low speed is landing speed once over the threshold.
There is a BIG difference between Actually STALLING the aircraft, and the Stall Warning 1st starting to sound.
ie Just because the stall warning starts to sound, does NOT mean you are necessary Stalling, its a warning that you are close to stalling.
So when you land a GA plane, and you hear that stall warning go off when landing, it means you are close to stalling, which typically is the ideal state to be in when just about to touch down, for a bounce free landing.
I do not like Airlines, but the impression I get with them, is that you fly by the numbers, and if you do that, the plane lands in a predictable & repeatable “satisfactory” manner.
Exactly – so in an Airline, you put all this information into your Flight Computer, and it calculates the optimum speeds etc for landing ? (or so I believed ? )
Thats why I say, it might be type specific, the (GA) aircraft I have flown it is unusual to hear the stall warning during flare, especially because the angle of attack and therefore stall speed decreases in ground effect this will result in endless floating on most planes.
Its simple, cross the threshold at the correct speed at 50 ft. Cut the power at the start of flare and touch on the main gear at an acceptable vertical rate without endless floating and flaring. The sooner you are on the ground the sooner you can start braking.
It really doesn’t matter at what speed to touch, whether its close to threshold speed or approaching the stall, using the correct technique there won’t be any bounce. Touching down at stallwarning activation is not a requirement in my book.
Thats how it is in real life, I’m not saying it works like this in MSFS. I haven’t had any problems with bouncing, but I notice the lack of drag and therefore deceleration resulting in endless floating unless landing positively.
As a former flight instructor, I respect what you say, and I am sure you are right, but I am having difficulty with the logic behind the above statement.
Seldom hear the stall warning during flare
Stall speed decreases in ground effect
So where is my logic and I going wrong:
So, if you are just about to stall, above ground effect , the warning sounds.
If you keep same speed and decend into ground effect, stall warning stops
(you are too fast ?)
So you bleed off more speed, and then the stall warning starts again.
Then you touch down just a little above (in ground effect) stalling speed.
So why would you not hear the stall warning ?
Every Cessna an Beechcraft I have flow, I have always considered that hearing the stall warning start sounding as I touched down, was a sign that I hit the right speed in the flare.
More or less yes, an aircraft might be able to fly within ground effect but won’t be able to climb out of it and vice versa. For example with an early rotation at too low speed for take-off. Or take this Russian thing which can only fly in ground effect for example.
In ground effect the effective angle of attack increases as tip vortices and induced drag decrease. Simply said the lift created at a certain angle of attack is higher in ground effect compared to out of the ground effect or in other words inside the ground effect you can fly at the same speed with a lower angle of attack.
The stall warning will still sound at the same angle of attack but since you are flying at a certain speed at a lower angle of attack within the ground effect it will take a longer flare to get to the critical angle of attack and this happens at a lower (stall) speed.
I just don’t flare that long, cross the threshold not below 1.3 x stallspeed, cut the power, short flare followed by a positive touchdown de-rotate and brake. No matter if I fly a GA aircraft a turboprop or jet.
It might be type specific, I can imagine if a certain aircraft type has a very shallow pitch in landing configuration and speed it might require a longer flare to bleed off speed and attain the desired landing attitude maybe?
Well put.
FYI:
Excerpt from Transport Canada Flight Training Manual
When the aircraft is within I5 to 30 feet (5 to 9 metres) from the ground, the flare (round-out) should begin. Once started, it should progress continuously until the aircraft is on the ground. If your speed is correct, as back pressure is applied to the control column the aircraft will begin to lose speed and start to settle. As the ground “comes up,” continue to ease the control column back. This movement of the elevator control is timed so that the slow, smooth, continuous, backward movement holds the aircraft just above the surface until the desired landing attitude is attained.
Key here, I think, is “…until the desired landing attitude is attained.”
When the aircraft has come to within 2 or 3 feet (1 metre) of the ground, check its descent by further back pressure on the elevator control. At this point the aircraft will be very close to its stalling speed.
Note this does not suggest stalling but if the student is taught to hold that attitude chances are they will encounter the warning horn and this is not discouraged as long as the aircraft is about to touch down.
In the case of a nose wheel aircraft, allow the nose wheel to lower gently to the runway of its own accord as the forward speed decreases and the elevators lose their effectiveness. Do not relax your attention at this point. Keep straight. This type of aircraft should not normally be " flown on" and held on the runway with excessive speed, since this may impose excessive stress on the nose wheel and possibly cause the undesirable condition known as wheelbarrowing.
Classic, experienced, commercial pilot technique. Proper technique in med/hvy/advanced/performance aircraft. Until skills have been tuned, however, that “positive” touchdown is what causes the inexperienced to be a bit too positive. I like to see beginners learn to arrest the descent just above the ground. From there we can bring their skill and precision up to the point where they can confidently “PUT” the aircraft down.
I have to agree on that, we more or less used that technique when I was an instructor with the addition that the temptation for long flare and smooth touchdown should be avoided to prevent extending the landing distance.
Sounds exactly like a combination of the two techniques now I look at it .
In previous company we had pilots engaging in those … measuring competitions, trying to make the smoothest touchdown and the loser had to pay for the beers.
All very nice and fun until people are starting to land with the power on and touchdown outside the touchdown zone striving for smooth touchdown …
All that said, this is the type of flying I spent the last 25 years doing. Far cry from the old CP-Air days.
Full stall tail first touchdown is a required skill in the bush.
Edit:
I would feel safer in the airplane than the guy with the camera.
Interesting tidbit. Illustrates the difference of technique between continents.
This from the FAA safety letter.
This week’s lessons:
A six-inch free-fall, such as stalling just a little high in the flare, results in touchdown forces
equivalent to a 340 foot-per-minute impact. Drop in from a little higher than that and you can
cause serious damage to the airplane.
A hard landing can impart several Gs of force on the airframe. How many times have you
heard of an Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) going off as a result of a hard landing? Most
ELTs require six or more Gs in order to trip…an objective measure of the force of a hard landing.
The trick, of course, is to reduce your vertical speed and increase your angle of attack so
the airplane touches down in a stall. Stall too high and, well, we’ve just seen what will happen.
Don’t reduce vertical speed soon enough and the airplane will rebound off the runway in a
bounce.
Every type of airplane has its own landing technique. Most of us fly or have flown
airplanes that are best landed in a full stall. Some heavier airplanes have to be flown onto the
touchdown, not quite stalling. Tailwheel airplanes may be landed either way, either a three-point
or a wheel landing. Technique may vary if there’s a strong wind, or if you’re landing on a short or
soft field. I was surprised when I flew Federal Express’ MD-11 simulator in Memphis several
years ago, that after the mains touched the correct procedure was to push forward to stick the
plane on…just like the wheel landings I used to do in my much, much smaller Cessna 120.
Regardless of the airplane type’s best technique, you need to transition from some
vertical speed to close to no vertical speed in a very small vertical distance, timed just right to put
the plane down with neither a bounce nor a hard landing.
Roundout and flare is a real art form, one we do at least once in every flight. We have
to do it right, within permissible tolerances. And right or wrong, it’s the standard by which others
will judge our ability as a pilot.
How do you best make this happen?
Fly the proper airspeed on final approach. There’s a
reason the Practical Test Standards requires airspeed control to +10/-5 knots 1.3 VSO on final
approach for the Private certificate, to 1.3 VSO +5 knots for type ratings and the ATP. Focus on
the far end of the runway—it’s easier to judge your height and rate of descent, and therefore
reduce it to near zero just inches above the runway, by looking at the horizon than it is looking
straight down or to a point just ahead of the airplane. Practice landings…and practice some
more.
The 767 training manual recommends that ‘the thrust levers should reach idle at mainwheel touchdown’.
You really have to shoot for rather smooth touchdowns in heavies and our the fleet chiefs were not happy if someone dropped a 767 or 777 in a semi-flared touchdown.
We used the oxygen masks as hard landing indicator, as soon as they are falling down from the ceiling its time to call maintenance.
Tripping an ELT is a pretty serious touchdown considering most aircraft are rated for 2/2.5g with flaps extended, for landing its usually higher depending on landing weight.
I have heard of it but never met someone actually experiencing it.
Weird that the FAA is talking about “full stalls” can’t imagine fully stalling an aircraft during landing .
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