Weather degradation

I honestly appreciate the question. 6 hours from now, the prog or TAF (and similarly wind aloft, etc) may indicate a forecast of a wide area of scattered or widespread precipitation. Sometimes the coverage, intensity, and confidence are very high. You see this in more stable-type weather - large areas of rain, snow, etc. which is broadly easier to predict. For unstable, convective weather, common to the US in the every afternoon from May to September, it’s not as specifically predictable until it’s closer to the forecast period.

For example, if you look at a 6 or 12 hour forecast, you’ll notice it’s giving that prediction in a wide time range - often a 2-6 hour block of probability (maybe a 30-40% chance). Often times this is because the precipitation has not yet developed and taken its course with regard to diurnal variation, specifically what happens to the atmosphere when the sun comes up or goes down. During the day there’s more vertical mixing, surface heating, etc. So forecasters know where the stuff might occur that far out, on what’s called the synoptic scale, but they don’t know exactly where or when on the smaller meso or storm scales. Thus, the 6-hour forecast might indicate strong storms over a 1,000sq mile area sometime between, say, 5 and 9PM. That’s a really broad area (and trust me, it gets even broader than that).

But those storms have not yet initiated and that’s the key. Convection is predictable several hours (even days) out in a broad sense, but those predictions are not accurate enough to say “I think we can make Airport x” until the storms actually fire up. Once that happens, usually in the mid to late afternoon, then it becomes a lot more predictable. A tornado watch may not go up until a hour or two prior to initiation of anyof the associated storm cells. Like, during clear skies, maybe an agitated altocumulus field.

Now, once the storms initiate and stabilize, larger, commercial aircraft may either delay or pick their way around that stuff, but it’s a timing game. The forecasts get way more accurate the closer to the time period. A forecast that indicates a period 1-2 hours away is almost treated as Gospel. For instance, during last night’s stream we watched several flights funnel through a couple gaps in the line between Omaha and Kansas City, one big gap near Oklahoma City. Sometimes those gaps are very narrow and hundreds of planes will fly through it (with careful coordination of ATC), otherwise you continue to delay or take the really long way around the entire storm system, potentially hundreds of miles out of the way. We watched a flight do that last night - from Guadalajara to Chicago - flew all the way over West Texas to stay on the back side of a major squall line.

For a different perspective, small aircraft will generally avoid flying near that stuff altogether, however, about 30-60 minutes after the line passes, watch all the planes launch to go do training, fly home, etc. I do this frequently.

Embedded thunderstorms are even more insidious - you have to know where they are and again, they often don’t build up until mid to late day. The only effective way to see these is radar (or lightning detection), maybe a stray METAR will catch one, but generally these are not something you want to mess with unless you have a really good picture.

Using just a 6 or 12 hour forecast model would pretty much ground all that activity because it would generate way too wide and non-specific of an area of weather. But then, say we do launch, and there is weather out there, we need the specifics of where that is - usually by use of radar, often supplemented by METAR, either from a data/network link or with the help of ATC. Of course, this is with the caveat that there is a delay when using data versus, say, an onboard radar. The forecast will not provide those specifics - we need, again, radar, METAR, PIREP, satellite, etc.

The main takeaway is that storm systems aren’t this congruous thing that travels from one side of the world to another and maintains its shape the entire way. They’re constantly changing shape, intensifying, diminishing, re-developing, skipping, jumping, in broadly, but not specifically, predictable ways until the forecast window gets closer. And that is made possible by observations and computer-model-driven calculations of diurnal changes and interactions with other weather. It’s generally a giant mess that has had tremendous improvement in accuracy over the last century, but it’s not and may never be accurate enough in most cases to say, at 6:00AM, “there will be a line of thunderstorms passing over O’Hare airport at 12:00PM (or 6:00PM).”

Thus, when it’s about launch time, we go from solely forecast-driven to observational-driven (and still looking at forecasts if it’s a longer flight).

For the sake of education and earnest learning, later today or tomorrow I will post some forecasts and we can see what actually happens 6 and 12 hours later, and compare notes. The big caveat to all of this is I live in a country that has a ton of microclimates, and one big party in the middle where it all comes together, so as pilots we have to pay attention to how this works.

tl;dr summary to your question - yes, the farther out the forecast, the more it’s making it up.

I appreciate the detailed answer. however you talk from a real life aviation point of view where the weather is indeed unpredictable. we dont have to do any of that in a simulator. the weather is supposed to always match the forecast data. sounds like you want the game weather to both be accurate and unpredictable to teach aviation safety. mhm we need options

I don’t disagree that we need options. I’m all for that. My goal is to educate and dispel a lot of repeated myths about how this works in a real-world context that is achievable in the sim (moreso than it ever has been).

But you’re misinterpreting my answer - it’s more unpredictable the farther away the forecast period is. The closer it gets, the more predictable it is. And we use observations (radar, METAR, and PIREP, generally in that order) in an even more predictable period, maybe zero to 10 minutes in the future, to very accurately make decisions in the moment, often while airborne.

no I get you but its unpredictable to real life not the game
and this all started because somehow using forecast data for the weather is bad

If you make it that unpredictable in the game, it basically eschews a lot of accessible tools that pilots use.

It’s not much different than saying “well we’re not actually at risk of an engine failure, and they’re too unpredictable, so why use engine gauges at all?”

Or sitting in a desk chair, we’re not actually getting vertigo, well most of us at least, so why use the tools like an attitude indicator.

Or airspeed - not 100% predictable in turbulence, or due to other performance factors so why use an airspeed indicator. A big needle that indicates somewhere between 100 and 130 should suffice.

No, we need the observations to make real-time decisions. The fact that we have computers that get us close enough to real-time is amazing. I’m pushing for more. But if folks want a choice to say “just give me the general version and make it pretty” and the ability to do so exists without hampering the former, go for it.

:disappointed: I just finished writing a treatise on why it is bad! :crazy_face:

TL;DR — we need lightning and thunder back. That should be a simple fix, one would think. We used to have it in Live Weather, now it’s nowhere to be found.

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If Asobo implemented METAR and radar and other observations that uses the data from MB and then exported that to other real world planning tools the weather in the sim would be equally predictable as the real weather right? The only issue is it doesn’t match those who uses VATSIM right?

The only reason i see that it needs to match the real world weather is that those online atc services uses another source of data.

If there were another online atc service that used the MB source of data the atc wouldn’t be an issue at all.

Generally speaking, yes. If they could provide a suite that is close enough to operational usability, like aviationweather.gov or Leidos, etc, then it would be close enough for most users.

However, we then go back to the way weather actually behaves compared to longer-range forecasts. Is the sim going to produce accurately-behaving (not just accurate looking) weather? I highly doubt it because in the end, it’s still generated from sine forecast somewhere (the power and data to model global weather from scratch doesn’t yet exist), the baseline generation is still going to be too broad at longer range, and it’s still going to jump dramatically when the subsequent update doesn’t match what actually happened (which perpetuates the cycle of things happening).

Either way, I think both of these ideas are immense lifts. I expect they’ll be able to figure out how to reduce lag and more smoothly blend injected real-world weather and render it better before they can come up with an accurate, useable standalone suite on their own.

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Then i want to ask. Why were they needed to change the system we had pre su7 when we could use the local METAR weather around airports using both free and paid addons? If the only purpose is to make it compatible with an online atc service thats not even included in the core simulator?

I know it’s a free service but not all of the users need to use that to be able to enjoy the sim. I’m one of them.

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I am seeing many good proposals in this topic as well as in others related to weather, with the intention to improve the Live Weather. Some users are really weather knowledgeable and are bringing sometimes complex solutions that require, from my perspective, re-writing the overall Live Weather engine. Asobo introduced al launch a very innovative (and I guess already complex) Live weather engine. Then between SU5 and SU7 they introduced big changes that completely changed the way Live weather was depicted. For me that was a regression for others an improvement. Anyway, Since SU7, 5 SUs have been implemented with few improvements to Live Weather. So I am wondering if it is in the plans of Asobo to re-write the overall Live Weather engine to integrate fully or even partially those complex proposals in order to get more accurate weather, better clouds depiction, better (or optional) METAR integration. I feel they are quite satisfied with actual Live Weather state, they have other priorities than re-wrinting such a complex module that is the Live Weather. I am not saying they will never do that, but if it happens I anticipate we’ll have to wait many SUs.

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I feel it must be done together with seasons update if any. But i think seasons means terrain visuals only when those seasons actually exists because of the weather to begin with.

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To be frank, that’s the other end of the spectrum I mentioned yesterday. Many users are focused on narrow, single-scenario usage. For instance, I guarantee the majority of virtual ATC/airline users only truly look at METAR at the destination and perhaps winds/temps aloft, and that’s it. So they call for timely accuracy to that specific end.

On another end, there are users who prioritize the visual aesthetic, regardless of accuracy in behavior or matching real world conditions. Some folks actually eschew geo/temporal-spatial accuracy in weather, which I have repeatedly caution heavily against based on my experience and education in the subject.

I’m looking for both, well all of it, really, and my goal, the reason I stick around in these threads, is there’s too much hyperfocus and/or groupthink coming from each side without evidence of true understanding of the big picture from many. The subject matter is much bigger and deeper than the individual bits of knowledge many users bring to the table via requests, wishlists, bug reports, and discussion.

So I’m here to offer what I can, take it or leave it: why aviation weather is important to understand, how weather works, the risks involved, how aviation weather products work, how they’re used in real life and how they can be interpreted in a realistic sim experience. Where I fall short is the ability to under-the-hood system design and code this, so I defer to others on that aspect.

That said, the existing weather system is extremely close to being completely, realistically useable, so let’s draw back from focusing on METAR, METAR, METAR, and SU7, and talk about why all the accuracy is important going forward - aesthetic and geospatial, forecast and observation, and everything in between. Again, you can listen to someone with experience and education and move forward with solutions or you can keep guessing and romanticize a fairly single-use past that didn’t work in many ways, for many users.

Can the weather be fixed to everybody’s satisfaction? What would make that possible? How can we fix the rendering in parallel to that solution? They don’t need to be viewed as mutually exclusive.

Both sides can be satisfied, but it’s going to take them getting out of their respective entrenched positions and come to a deeper understanding. I wish more subject matter experts would speak up.

And I absolutely agree that seasons are a must.

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Thats why i often mention options. Options introduce multi-scenario usage. For example, to get the sim weather in a fully dynamic experience and at the same time be 100% accurate will take same amount of time to implement as it will take to make forecasts 100% accurate. If we could have 100% accurate weather in the sim, forecasts would already be 100% predictable. I know all of those sources has limitations. And you have also mentioned that right? That means if we use the forecasted weather only we also accept the limitations of that source while those that uses the observations source would accept the limitations of those sources.

I feel there is no wrong or right about all of this.

Either we preffer a fluid forecasted weather that only updates every 12 hour without interuptions or we preffer a less fluid system that updates several times per day. There is no perfect solution until there exists 100% predictable weather.

For you the more accurate observation weather feels like weather, for me the more fluid/varied forecasted weather felt more like weather.

And I would respond to say that’s an overly general statement. PilotEdge is far more VFR friendly than VATSIM, and as you well know, enroute weather matters a lot to VFR pilots.

I can’t speak to the accuracy of MeteoBlue forecasts and current conditions in the LA area because I don’t live there, but MeteoBlue is usually accurate for where I do live. I can only assume that MeteoBlue is also accurate for the LA area.

As it stands, the game often doesn’t match MeteoBlue in the LA area, and since the PilotEdge controllers presumably expect it to be close to the (presumably correct) MeteoBlue conditions, that’s a problem. What I have to do then is use custom weather and advise the controllers that I have “information Zulu” (code for when flying with custom weather).

FL340, headed North and currently between Haiti and the Bahamas, lightning almost made me fall out of my chair I haven’t seen it in so long.

Sky is lighting up but graphically, it looks absolutely terrible!!!

the entire argument for accurate (aviation) weather only applies to multiplayer. for planning single player + ai flights you only have to use the meteoblue forecast and if the data is injected correctly the game weather will 100% match and be accurate to that source. why are single players forced to stay within the limits of 3rd party platforms like vatsim and pilotedge?

then that is a bug and should be reported. why is it not matching the source?

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So true. And i wonder how much percent of MSFS users actually use VATSIM? If it were 100% of the userbase i would understand the forced change. But only if VATSIM changed their source they control against to MB source.

I use fshud offline based. And i love that. I think you mentioned that in another thread and needed to try and i loved it. Especially 1.3 BETA. Used pilot2atc before. Still use that while flying VFR though.

Both of those uses METAR based sources but i accept if those METARS are wrong because i know MSFS using MB as source. And even that those tools using METAR i would use the MB source only if that were possible to choose. I can just check their webpage and what i see there should match the sim weather. And it does most of the time but since they introduced METAR the weather feels same every single flight.

And i agree we should have reported that the weather didn’t match MB source when it didn’t match the MB source. I did after release 2020 at the place they said we should report bugs (zendesk) but instead they added METAR because of votes on the forum.

Weather feels the same because METARS all use the same general parameters for their data. Truly fluid dynamic weather does not. It follows it’s own mind. METAR takes free flowing weather and confines it into parameters that in and of themselves can become quite restrictive. Difference between putting your dog on a leash versus letting it run free. On the leash you can keep your dog where you want it to go and know the general direction. Off the leash there’s a million different things that can happen. There are only so many variations of METAR that can be produced based within those restrictions or parameters.

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But we have the choice to choose if we want to let it run free or have the dog on a leash in the real world. Sometimes we don’t feel the need to have it on a leash. But in this sim all of the users needs to be restricted.

If they open it up we will only see METAR based addons. Asobo tried something different for once and i think that were the last time we will see that thing.

Those will set same ”preset” globally.