3rd party aircrafts not "on par" with latest physics in FS2020?

Can you plese tell me which aircraft (3rd party) thats not taking full advantage of the latest flight sim model in FS2020? I just read that Just Flight Piper-pack is NOT going to be updated for a while. Yes, that is really sad.

Any other aircraft you think I should remove until a better version comes out, taking advantage of what FS2020 could give?

Are the Just Flight Hawk up to the standards? Carenados aircraft? (yeah, simpler but could be good fun anyway).

1 Like

I’m not sure you realise just how much work is involved in changing the flight model of an aircraft. Yes most aircraft will be using the legacy flight model at the moment, but many are still better than some of the aircraft that have been updated to use the newer physics.
Just because something is using the older model, its certainly not reason on its own to delete it.

1 Like

I was just asking…

Maybe should we keep in mind the differences between the Legacy mode (Fsx), the Modern mode (MSFS) and finally planes that benefit from the CFD model introduced on the C172 G1000 ?

A quick search gives me this post : New Propeller + CFD + Soft Body Simulation / Aircraft List

4 Likes

^^This

The Piper pack definitely uses the Modern flight model - whihc should be used for all planes other than ports across from FSX. There are elements of the modern flight model that are relatively new and not all aircraft (third party or stock) use them yet.

I am also disappointed Just flight are not using the new flight model tools such as CFD, new Prop and SBS. When they released the Piper planes they were great, but over sim updates, they are not flyable to the level of realism they once were. The Asobo C-172 with the new modeling tools is superior and I far prefer flying that and the WBsim version. I am a Piper lover so it disappoints me that I have Just Flight Pipers in the hangar flying a Cessna instead. Even if Just Flight updates their own model, it will probably ‘break’ again with future sim updates that are tuned around CFD etc…

People are confusing the Modern (MSFS native) and legacy (FSX) flight model with the updated physics in the modern flight model.

To the best of my knowledge all JF aircraft use the modern flight model, although they have not all been updated to take advantage of the recent physics enhancements.

1 Like

Ok.

Any other 3rd party (or Asobo) aircraft you stay away from because of their weaknesses? (not weaknesses the real planes got, ofcourse - but weakneses in the modeling, systems, feeling, lack of updates etc?

So…

“the recent physics enhancements.” is what the JF Pipers are missing? How does that show?

It doesn’t. Basically MS updated the physics, particularly airflow etc and particularly with props and rotors. Developers can use the old or new methods, both continue to work, and both are part of the modern flight dynamics. Neither has anything to do with the FSX flight model.
The main driver for the change was the official launch of helicopters in November 2022. As we all know, there were several very good helicopters before November, and these obviously continue to work.

So, reading up thread, it sounds like they updated the C172 G1000 to take advantage of the updated physics, but none of the other stock aircraft? Does anyone know if there are plans to update the C152 and the C172 classic too?

I flew the sim for the first time since about September 2022 the other day and I was disappointed how bad the C152 felt on the ground and in the air. I remember the C152 and C172 classic feeling more like an airplane before? It feels like they’re broken now? (e.g. the C152 is way too “slippery” in the air, it feels like auto rudder is on even though it isn’t, and the ground handling is wonky in even the slightest crosswind, etc.)

Both Asobo C152 and the Asobo C172 Classic have 3PD Mods, that significantly improve them, in many ways, including their Flight Models

C152

C172 Classic

With exception to some ground handling tweaks, the JP Logistics mod has reverted to the stock C152 flight model as of the v2.0.0 release (with exception to the taildragger of course), and the 172SP mod doesn’t change the flight model pretty sure. They are systems mods more than they are flight model mods.

For flight model mods, it’s worth checking out MGouge425 and bagolu. Bagolu’s C172SP mod is a systems and flight model improvement that is exceptional, and it’s free.

1 Like

Replying to OP’s original questions:

I wouldn’t remove any of them, unless they haven’t been updated in so long they are broken or their performance numbers are way off.

If you are asking about CFD and modern prop effects, just because the sim now accommodates those features doesn’t mean that addons not utilizing them are suddenly obsolete. Theoretically they should perform the same as they did before. If they were developed well, they will still fly well. I’ve noticed Carenado has recently released some long-awaited updates to a few of their addons, but I’m not sure whether they utilize any of the new FM features as the files are all encrypted.

As for the reason old addons aren’t being updated with the new features - time and resources. CFD and modern prop can just be enabled in the config files, but they affect performance and flight characteristics such that several other parameters need to be adjusted accordingly, and that involves a whole new process of testing to make sure the addon is hitting the right numbers. Some developers (like FlyingIron) are perfectly willing to keep all of their existing addons updates with the latest flight model features. Others aren’t, and I can’t really blame them.

Since the new flight model features do create some pretty fantastic results with handling and overall feel of aircraft, I don’t think there is any excuse for not using them for the development of new addons going forward.

Thanks, but MGouge425 and bagolu don’t seem to have any C152 flight model improvements. I really wish Asobo would update their default GA aircraft flight models, but for the time being I hacked a work around: I found that the ‘rudder_trim_limit’ setting in the C152’s flight_model.cfg file is defaulted to ‘0’, so I bumped it up to 5 and then created a script in spad.next that lets me mix in some rudder trim as a function of angle of attack and throttle setting. It’s not perfect yet, but it’s a step in the right direction. I now at least need to hold right rudder during takeoff and climbout, and I get that nose swing to the left if I don’t touch the rudder when I go from idle to full power.

2 Likes

Have you tried adjusting “torque_on_roll” and “engine_wash_on_roll” under flight tuning? I recall they affect the yaw tendencies on takeoff. If that works, you wouldn’t have to mess around with the rudder trim. Or you could try both to get the desired effect. I know WB increased those two parameters in the latest JP Logistics update. I’d be interested to know what the outcome is.

1 Like

I saw those settings while I was in there but they sound from their names like they concern roll, not yaw. The effects that I was trying to simulate with my script are P-factor and propeller slipstream effects on yaw.

Also keep in mind that some 3rd party aircraft developers who have invested in developing hi-fidelity aircraft may have found ways of achieving very good flight models and behaviour without the use of CFD or NPS and that CFD in particular may only yeild improvement in rare edge-cases.

So CFD is only an indicator. Perhaps much more important is if the developer has leveraged the new variables to improve ground handling in cross winds - the most glaring problem effecting nearly all aircraft. Some Devs have…others not. I personally wouldn’t buy a plane that had not had this improvement…well not unless I could access the aircraft.cfg to improve it myself…

1 Like

They still affect yaw pretty sure. Increase one of them and see. I just flew the stock C152. There was plenty of leftward tendency there on takeoff. Perhaps not as much as there should be. Don’t mean to sound rude, but you’re absolutely sure all assistance is turned off?

Exactly, CFD basically is just another way to get a good flight model especially by getting rid of dealing with fixed parameters and some tables so in general it’s simplifying the developers work.

On the other hand of course it also adds some more dynamic due to the addition of a proper airflow around the logical fuselage - however for now this simulation is limited to a simplified aircraft model. So while a Skyhawk, a Citation or an A320 will benefit from this a Pitts S2 won’t as the airflow at high AOA is not properly done here.

CFD would be really interesting whenever it would be possible to have multiple wings simulated besides multiple engines (maybe the engines are just the next step into this direction? :wink: )

1 Like