Ability to shift the RENDERED PLANE of environment and aircraft independently (separate frustums) for dual seat cockpits

[FearlessSwan217]

This WISH topic is quite different to other topics related to cockpit seat position
This post has been updated due to subsequent discussion below and better understanding
See Contributions on 1 June 2023 by @BeardyBrun @PHSepp796 @azpilot61 @FlyerOneZero @bTdWolf

This WISH is for an ability to offset an aircraft orientation independently to the world or environment.
This wish is for the ability to laterally shift/offset the entire rendered world (including any set camera view) without changing any other existing camera parameters (Xyz / Pbh)
Please see images provided further below for understanding of this request.

The Problem
Currently, in MSFS2020 the focus or direction of the “view” as seen by a “player/pilot” is oriented to the centre of the computer monitor.

This is not normally a problem as all “games” see the world through the eyes of the player – for example, through a gun “sight” – and this view is oriented to the centre of the computer monitor.

However, in a flight simulator, the “sight” is the aircraft cockpit pilot position.
In MSFS, in addition to the range of views for looking around the cockpit, the player/pilot position is achieved by adjusting the position of the cockpit view on screen. Specifically the Default Pilot VFR position offsets the cockpit to the right of the monitor so that the view of the world approximates the view from the left seat of the aircraft. This assumes the player is seated directly in front of computer monitor – which is why the cockpit is moved to the right, so that the pilot view is over the left console area.

However this creates a problem for a dual seat cockpit simulator build. In a dual seat simulator, the pilot is ACTUALLY sitting on the left with the simulator picture centred on a 55 inch screen at the front. This means that in MSFS2020 the orientation of the world/environment is not in line with the human (because the view of the world is still oriented to the middle of the screen. The simulator picture always assumes the human is in the centre of the screen).

It is therefore not possible in a dual seat cockpit to configure a correct view of the world – specifically the alignment of runways to the eye of the pilot in the left seat. All perspectives – including runway lines – are aimed toward the middle of the screen.

As seen in the series of pictures below, the world can be aligned so that runway lines are oriented toward a pilot in the left seat of a dual seat cockpit, but this skews the MSFS view of the instrument panel (and plane cockpit) off square. If the MSFS instrument panel view is made square, the runway alignment is incorrect.

Below is a similar example in a different aircraft

The result of this issue is that in flight, from the cockpit, the aircraft appears to be “yawing” toward the left. This can be ignored for most of the time but it is during landing that the reality is spoiled. All approaches must be lined up with the centre of the windscreen rather than over the left side console as is the normal view of a pilot during landing.

See the following examples of landing approaches.

The desired WISH is related to the EXPERIMENTAL multi-screen options for dual seat cockpits.
Once the Default VFR Pilot view is set, the total rendered view (cockpit and environment) need to be able to be shifted or offset laterally.
(Note: this has nothing to do with the existing Lateral offset available in experimental Multi-screen)

The following pictures illustrate what I am seeking.

Video toggling these images

See also Picture A and Picture B following

@Crunchmeister71 @FlyerOneZero

[azpilot61]

Yep XPlane has these offsets and I’ve moved the lateral offset to sit right where I should so in any aircraft I’m in the left seat. This also helps with home cockpits (which I have) as well. I’ve mentioned this way back in the Beta before release and it fell on def ears. The only way to get something close to this is window mode and then adjust the screen so you are sitting in the left seat or at least the appearance is of that. It works but not really ideal.

I voted for this but personally don’t see that it will ever get implemented or at least I’d be surprised if it ever does.

[FearlessSwan217]

Thanks,
I did have X-Plane 11 trial version before MSFS 2020 implemented their multi-screen. I went with MSFS because of the world scenery and ability to virtually fly anywhere in the world.
It is generally pretty good - but I had a pilot friend come for a fly the other day and all he did was complain because the pilot view was wrong.
I obviously have it set up with the cockpit central on the screen

![20230110_192724|690x338]

If I read you correctly, you are saying that with X-Plane I can shift the rendered view of the world with the plane/cockpit/instrument panel together - without changing the set pilot view over the console.
If that is so, I might download the trial version of X-Plane 12 and give it another go.
It is just a pity that X-Plane does not have the global scenery like MSFS.

Thanks for your reply.

[azpilot61]

Hopefully these show up, here is my view sitting where I should be, I’ve moved the screen laterally 0.41 to the right so that this lines up on the left side pilot seat. I haven’t added the side screens to my setup as I have some bad vertigo and last time I had some setup it made it so I couldn’t fly. (reason I no longer fly IRL after 34 years)

[FearlessSwan217]

Thanks again.
From your pictures, I am not totally sure of what I am seeing. I cannot see any runway lines so I do not know where you are on the runway or what you are seeing over the dash (as per my picture 18).

In your second photo, it is not clear that the dash panel is square on the screen or slightly skewed like my picture number 8.

Also, when you say you have moved the screen laterally 0.41 to the right, that confuses me because I am not sure what you have moved. The dash is in the centre and it looks like the plane is on a slightly left heading.

(Sorry if I am not getting what should be obvious to me.)

[azpilot61]

So maybe this might help more, shot on the runway with the Cessna 17 2 and the Archer III TX G1000. And one of the Ceessna 172 without the latteral movement change at default settings. You can see if I didn’t change it from default I’m sitting way to the left and I would have to either move the screen or my controls to get more in line with the cockpit where I should be setting. Changing the latteral movement moves the cockpit setting/screen to where I’m in the pilot seat with the screen centered behind my hardware. I only run a 43" monitor, I think on a 55" it would look better and you would be able to see I’m on the left side of the plane, not centered in the cockpit.

[FearlessSwan217]

Thanks for those photos.

@azpilot61

You can see if I didn’t change it from default I’m sitting way to the left

It seems that I might just have to install the trial X-Plane 12 to find out if I understand what you are saying.
To me your “default” position in the third photo is the same as the default in MSFS. The runway is in the centre of the screen and the cockpit is offset to the right and virtually square on the screen - which is correct for a single seat directly in front of the screen.

In picture 1 & 2 you have moved the Dash to the centre of the monitor.
But now the cockpit is not square on the screen and the runway is not actually straight in front of the pilot - presuming the seat is now on the left.
I have drawn lines on your pictures to show you what I mean.

The red line is square to the monitor and your instrument panel and the vertical line is the angle runway should be.
The white line is following the dashboard on the X-Plane image.
The runway perspective is off in a left direction

As you say, on a 55 inch monitor it might look better because it is closer to the actual size of a real plane, but in these images the plane is still yawing to the left in relation to the physical cockpit instrument panel - which is exactly the same problem in MSFS.

My pictures with the grid lines is the view that we desire.
The runway is dead in front - not angled away to the left perspective as in your images.

But I guess the only way to know is to install the trial of X-Plane.

In the mean time, I can put up with MSFS as per my landing approach pictures 12-16 if we are not trying to appease fussy real-life pilots.

Thanks again for your contribution.
Cheers
Alan

[PHSepp796]

Msfs measures is in two ways translate view and panview
The pan view is from pilot eye and translate view is from horizon eyepoint. So they work in my opinion against each other. i use this in my setup and im quite happy with it.
But i use two licences of msfs and connect to each other thru shared cockpit and or wideview, so i have two pilot eyepoints instead of one eyepoint
And if i configere my windows in certain way i could make dual seat cockpit not easy but also not impossible.
I don’t think asobo will implement dual eyepoint for benefit of 2 pilotviews
But i gave my vote to this topic wish
Also this what u can try with one licence of msfs is use headtracking device and swap seat
Center the camera for tracking clever so i detects on both positions and configure the slide dof left right the image on screen will adapt view as long as you center view in the middle in msfs this is probably the easiest way for it give translate view automatically priority and pilot eyepoint wil move along with the one who wear the headset with ir leds or give each headset and give it an on off switch

[FearlessSwan217]

Thanks.

@PHSepp796

Msfs measures is in two ways translate view and panview
The pan view is from pilot eye and translate view is from horizon eyepoint.

I understand that.
Translate moves the pilot eye position.
Pan changes the direction the pilot is looking.

The problem is that when we translate, the eye perspective remains at the middle of the screen.
Translating does not move the eye position over to where a human is sitting in a dual seat cockpit.

One solution I have used that does work pretty well is to create a custom camera view where the plane/cockpit is not even visible at all - like on the nose of the plane just in front of the windscreen.
In the picture below, the wheels are sitting exactly in the centre of the runway.
I have translated the view to the left and and adjusted the pan so that the pilot view of the runway is genuinely in front of the left seat.

It is like you have a full glass canopy with no wings visible.
But with no features of the wings or cockpit visible, you lose some of the experience of being in the selected plane.
Nevertheless, it is a pretty good temporary solution.

Below are pictures of an approach and landing with the correct pilot view.

Perfect landing on centre of runway

Like I say, if we could just shift the world and the cockpit independently, that would be perfect.

I don’t think asobo will implement dual eyepoint for benefit of 2 pilotviews

True. But that is not what I am asking for… you could not have dual eyepoint on one screen anyway.
(I do not plan to make things more complicated with any eye tracking device)

Cheers
Alan

[BeardyBrun]

The solution to your problem isn’t to offset the cockpit or aircraft relative to the outside world - I don’t think that’s technically feasible.

What you need is a control to offset the rendering plane from the camera, which replicates how a ‘shift’ lens works on a real camera. Most commonly known as a way to remove the vertical perspective from photos of tall buildings, it would apply in this situation if shifted horizontally rather than vertically.

3D software typically has this as a feature of the camera, my guess is that x-plane does similar.

Further info on the practical method here…

A Quick Introduction to Shooting with a Tilt-Shift Lens

[PHSepp796]

This is what i archieve when edit the camera.cfg of concearning airplane in my case C172 classic
Default aircraft of the sim and here is what it looks like with initialPhb setting changed to this

Now center view

Now same centerview but in sim translate to the right

And now translate to the left

This required some tweaking in the camera.cfg on section cameradefenition.0 Title Pilot
But these picture i made straight from msfs

I hope this is then what you aim for

Regards

Sebastiaan

[FearlessSwan217]

Thanks again @PHSepp796
That is still not doing as desired by the look of the three pictures.

See in your first picture the runway is right in the middle of the screen… as is the instrument dash.
But when you move the dash to the left in the second picture - the runway is still in the middle.

The same with picture three. You have moved the dash to the right… while the runway lines are still virtually in the middle of the screen.

@BeardyBrun has it right

We need to be able to move whole of picture 3 to the left - runway and dash - without the visual heading changing.

I guess I will just have to experiment.
It takes a bit of crazy patience to test the different combinations of possibilities in the camera configs but that is how to crack the solution if it is possible.

In my recent pictures of my approach and landing with a clear screen camera view, the position of plane itself is about half a body width off to the right (outside the cockpit.)

It is actually good fun flying with that set up because everything is very realistic with respect to the pilot view… just some features of the plane itself missing.

I have set up that camera view with Number 8.
I can use 1 - 7 for other views I have set up outside the plane (using a trick with the camera config files) and number 9 & 0 select instrument panel views for when I need to get to the instruments or floor.

I will keep experimenting.
Cheers
Alan

[PHSepp796]

Hi Alan

The setting i made was pretty quick setup fast realized, in dev mode aircraft selector i did not have to shut the sim down with every change but instead i reload the airplane after apply settings in camera.cfg
I think i could tweak even more precize, but moving the whole plane is something else.

For my second picture of the dash to the right, i will refer to my setting in the camera.cfg
InitialPbh if you look close-up to these numbers you notice the - sign in front of these numbers, now if remove this - sign than my pictures would be the oposite
These pan bank and heading setting work as radial as in ° rather than %
It seems possible to do so but require something else which i have not discovered yet
Maybe it is this shift lens, i must look in to this.

@FearlessSwan217

In my recent pictures of my approach and landing with a clear screen camera view, the position of plane itself is about half a body width off to the right (outside the cockpit.)

It is actually good fun flying with that set up because everything is very realistic with respect to the pilot view… just some features of the plane itself missing.

I love this actually i have it set up outside my plane like this as default
So i must translate myself into the airplane like i walk towards.

But i have a very special setup with lots of screens so i do a lot with these kind of zoom translate and pan settings.

So i continue to do research on this topic thanks for creating it i find it very interesting
Im thinking also this could be interesting to create a stream for this on discord live stream.

Regards

Sebastiaan

[BeardyBrun]

If the top image here is the default pilot view and the bottom one is what you’re requesting, it’s accomplished by shifting the render plane as described preivously. The cockpit, environment and camera are otherwise identical between both images.

[Sal1800]

I think @BeardyBrun is on the right track for your solution. It’s what I was thinking too. Just shift the 3D model. The exact amount will depend on how much zoom you are using.

[FearlessSwan217]

@Sal1800

I think @BeardyBrun is on the right track for your solution. It’s what I was thinking too. Just shift the 3D model. The exact amount will depend on how much zoom you are using.

OK. So now I get what @BeardyBrun was saying.
I did not get it previously when he wrote:

@BeardyBrun

What you need is a control to offset the rendering plane from the camera

Of course!!! All we need is the ability to shift the render plane.
In my words that would be an ability to offset the total picture.
See my images below - similar to @BeardyBrun.

In trying to get the position right by adjusting xyz and heading, I overlooked the simple fact that once we have our VFR pilot view correct, all we need to do is shift the complete picture left without altering the pan/heading.

That should be a relatively simple modification because nothing about the SIM operation is being changed - just virtually shifting the projection sideways.

Below are my pictures that compliment the two shown by @BeardyBrun above.

Edit 20 May 2024.
To make it clearer and avoid confusion, I have added the two following images.
The first image is as MSFS displays the view of the cockpit - instrument panel is placed CENTRE of 55 inch TV screen… as we want in a dual seat cockpit.

The next image is how I want it to look… because I am sitting in the left seat.
The instrument panel has not moved but the background has. I made this image in Photoshop because it is not currently possible to get this view in MSFS2020.

20 June 2024 I have also swapped my old video with a new video toggling the above two images. See the external rendered field is toggling left and right with out any change in cockpit view. This represents the front TV. only. (Left and right TV monitors would show the relevant views as they currently do in multi-screen mode). See my previous post above with photos.

Ability to shift the RENDERED PLANE of environment and aircraft independently (separate frustums) for dual seat cockpits

Thanks. I understand that. Translate moves the pilot eye position. Pan changes the direction the pilot is looking. The problem is that when we translate, the eye perspective remains at the middle of the screen. Translating does not move the eye position over to where a human is sitting in a dual seat cockpit. One solution I have used that does work pretty well is to create a custom camera view where the plane/cockpit is not even visible at all - like on the nose of the plane just in front…

[PHSepp796]

@FearlessSwan217

I should edit the title of this WISH post to reflect the correct understanding we have developed here.

How about;
Quote to Vote for tilt shift lens to get centerview right

[FlyerOneZero]

In MSFS the view frustum is always centred horizontally and vertically relative to the display surface. You can move the camera position (‘eye-point’) but you cannot move the frustum origin. This is why you can’t do what you’re looking to do at the moment.

I would suggest that a better wish would be for full control of one or more view frustums (in multi-monitor currently you have multiple frustums but they all have the same origin point, merely different rotations) with the ability to adjust their origin in 3D space asymmetrically and their rotation in all six axes. This would provide the flexibility that everyone needs and for many more use-cases than this one, including those looking to do multi-projection displays with warping and blending.

[FearlessSwan217]

@FlyerOneZero

I would suggest that a better wish would be for full control of one or more view frustums

Yes, I agree with you. I just thought that would be too much to wish for… and too much to ask of Asobo.

It would seem not too much to ask to be able to shift the origin point of the frustrum horizontally - with all the multi-monitor views linked as they are presently.

At least that would solve the dual seat view problem.

Your other wish for independent adjustment for each monitor would be a perfect for correcting the other problems of alignment.

Thanks for your vote and lets keep taping this ball along by alerting others to this post and seeking their vote too. It may be a long shot but costs nothing to try.

Cheers
Alan

[PHSepp796]

Hi there @FearlessSwan217

Nice puzzel you present us thanks needed this

I think i understand what you are saying and it is very intresting and intriging, but my question is
" you want to sit with two actual persons in your cockpit and both have the same experience with their unique view parspectif as one like sitting in a car irl with both passengers in the front seats?"

Regards

Sebastiaan