Airbus A320neo - I can't land

[SkyVagrant4490]

Hi Dreampage, welcome to the sim community.

Listen, you’ll need to check out several YouTubes on this type of procedures and how the aviation technology supports those. But… let’s also set you up with a little back-up routine so you can improvise yourself when you notice your use of this technology isn’t perfect yet (and note: the sim isn’t perfect yet either, they’re still trying to sort things out with ILS procedures).

I’m gonna try to give you the smallest of guides on an ILS approach.

First, you’re going to need an ILS frequency and an inbound course for the particular runway you are landing on. Just google “skyvector” and then the airport ICAO code that you’re going to land. Like EHAM, EGGL, LFMN, whatever. This website contains all that data on ILS frequencies and headings.

Now make sure you have your Flight Director (FD) selected to on, this might also cure your autopilot hold mode, but I’m not sure. Just double check this always before departing. It tells the autopilot where to go.

Now manually put that ILS frequency and the course in the box here (thanks KarmaWhiskas). The system will normally do this automatically but it’s perfectly fine for you to do this manually if need be. It happens in real life too when suddenly sidestepping runways for traffic separation.

Once you have put the ILS frequency and inbound course in the MCDU, select APP / APPR (approach) on the autopilot panel. You can engage localizer first too, but let’s not overcomplicate things. Basically the LOC is only half of the ILS and ‘APP’ is also needed for autoland.

Now you’ll have to understand two very basic things about an average ILS approach:

You intercept them at about 3,000 feet above the ground, about 15 miles from the runway tresh hold, in an angle of maximum 45 degrees. Think of the ILS as a funnel, aimed upwards to the sky. It’s a beam of radio signals that you need to fly into.

So when you are aligning for the runway, try to be there at about 15 NM, at 3000 feet Above Ground Level (so if the airport elevation is 1800 feet, you’ll be flying at 4800 feet), and keep your speed at 180 knots or below.

When you aim your turn into the ILS radio beams, keep your heading bug within the dark spot on your ILS needle. You’ll need to intercept it within an angle of maximum 45 degrees or the localizer intercept might fail, that’s why. You can get this image on your Navigation Display by using the rotary switch above the screens. Put it on ILS.

Finally, make sure both Flight Directors (left and right) are engaged and both ILS modes (left and right also, so on the copilots panel) and this way you should always be able to manually program the ILS you’re going to use, regardless of MCDU procedures that are a lot more complex (but also very cool to study on YouTube and elsewhere. Treat yourself on all this fascinating technology)

Hope you’ll have many happy landings in the near future!

[SierraHotel2873]

And switch on LS (next to the FD button) - so you see the diamonds in the PFD.

[dreampage]

Thank you. Most of these things I’ve already applied (Flight Director, APPR mode, the LS info display), and with the exception of altitude change (which I always have to manually tell the AP, but I guess it’s how it should be as I see that in YouTube videos as well) the AP can fly the plane pretty much anywhere it needs to. It was quite a learning curve to realize exactly what and how I need be set in order for the plane to land, but I more or less get the hang of it now, even though I will probably never learn all the nooks and crannies of the different displays, instruments and such (partly because I don’t have a sufficient PC to properly fly on, and because I still doubt the console version will offer the same level of depth, mainly because of input device differences - but we’ll see).

I am already through a few ILS landings, but I also realize that some of them have been due to pure luck instead of my in-depth knowledge of these things. There are many things to look out for, even during flight planning, which I’ve learned the hard way. I do think MSFS could do with more tutorials on this topic (something which it will probably get with the console release) as anyone who wants to fly an airliner simply has to know these things.

On console I will most certainly land manually most of the time. I only try to do this on PC because on my laptop the framerate is so low that I can’t manually land, I simply don’t see the motion smoothly enough to make necessary adjustments. However, this shortcoming is also a great opportunity to learn the ILS method, the instruments etc, at least on a medium level. It will be fun starting over with the Boeing 747.

[SkyVagrant4490]

Good to hear that you’re getting the hang of it!

And rest assure, I think a lot of us SimOldies have learned doing all this on a ■■■■-py computer, fumbling our way through the cockpit, only understanding half of it at first. Back in my early days we didn’t even had youtube yet so I just had to read a lot about it on fora; with all those wisesasses such as myself now making it sound all so sickeningly easy.

The funny thing is though… once you start getting it, different technology, different procedures, different nooks and crannies, you eventually get to re-use that same understanding in so many different situations. For me, in 22 years of flying, no two landings have really been the same. Yet at the same time you understand procedures and technology to apply and they will guide you down to that runway. That eventually creates a very satisfactory feeling; taxiing your plane off the runway and into the gate. After a couple of years of simflying you get that same slightly arrogant, vastly selfapplauding smile that you see real world captains have on Youtube after a landing. It just comes naturally with the territory.

[dreampage]

OK, now a new problem has appeared. I tried to land at Kennedy Intl Airport ILS 04R. I set up the frequency, the whole flight went completely smoothly. The plane catched the localizer and the glideslope and it seemingly went dead on for landing. However, the speed was too fast in my opinion (180 kts) and the plane hit the ground so hard that it bounced back into the air, AP disengaged and I had to try and manually land, which I naturally couldn’t do really well.

Why was this? Why was it that the plane followed the diamonds perfectly yet it hit the ground so hard?

And another thing: I landed manually but went off to the grass. After this it became impossible to steer the plane on the ground, the front gear just didn’t turn. Is this because it was damaged during landing, does MSFS do such a thing (damaged controls)? It’s very annoying that after surviving a land the plane cannot be controlled on the ground.

(Note: I can’t land manually not because I’m so bad but because the sim runs at around 5-6 fps on my laptop close to the ground and I simply can’t see what’s happening.)

[PZL104]

There is no autoland in the default A320!

You have to disengage the AP latest at 80ft and manually flare the aircraft.

180kts is way too fast. Even at high weight the approach speed shouldn’t be higher than ~140kts.

Agree, with such a low frame rate manually flaring the A320 doesn’t make much sense.
But I doubt that the AP will perform significantly better at such a low frame rate.

[dreampage]

The AP has landed very well several times now, using the ILS. Due to the different assists the plane could even reverse thrust on its own. This was the first time it hit the runway so hard, and also the first time that the speed was so fast, it used to be around 150-160 if I recall correctly. No, it’s not autoland, it’s ILS landing, there’s even an achievement for this in the game (which I have).

[PZL104]

Again the AP can’t land. It doesn’t flare and it doesn’t reduce thrust to idle on its own.

If it ‘landed’ with the AP engaged, it was just a coincidence and the sink rate wasn’t so high that it triggered a crash.

Autoland is only possible when performing an ILS approach.

Using assists is a completely different story.
AFAIK the AI copilot can land and even taxi your aircraft.

[trex5365]

There is something being lost here. Let me see if I can help a little.

There is a difference between AI co-pilot and auto land amd ILS and auto pilot

AI Co pilot - the computer behaving as if it were a copilot human sitting next to you in the flight deck. When you give the plane to ai co pilot, it’s effectively your computer flying the plane. This is DIFFERENT than autopilot.

Autopilot - functionality built into the plane for the purposes of easing pilot workload. Think about cruise control/speed hold in a car.

Instrument approach- navigation procedures to guide the airplane to the ground, often used in low visibility. An instrument approach may be flown by hand or intercepted by the autopilot. Note that not all Instrument approaches have vertical guidance, meaning some approaches will help you locate the runway, but will not guide you down vertically from altitude to it (some RNAV, VOR, NDB approaches)

ILS - Instrument Landing System, a subcategory of instrument approach where a signal is broadcast from the runway to guide planes to land.

Autoland - a subcategory of ILS, which is a subcategory of instrument approach. In actuality, Autoland is referred to as a Category 3 ILS approach. Cat 3 ILS includes nose wheel guidance. It’s intended to get the plane down to the ground on the worst of the worst weather days.

A real life A320 coming off the factory line will have Cat 3 capability. Many older ones will not as there is cost to upgrade the avionics.

The default A320 in Flight Simulator does not have Cat 3 capability. In the meantime, you can pretend that the Finance dept at your airline will not pay for the component upgrades. This is not a Bug as much as it is a not yet released feature. This is what people mean when they say that the default A320 doesn’t have this functionality.

The workaround is to give the plane to the AI copilot, which is DIFFERENT from the autopilot. The autopilot is the plane’s on board computer flying itself. The AI co pilot is YOUR computer playing flight simulator on your behalf.

In real life, if flying a non-CAT3 ILS approach with autopilot (ILS without autoland - what the default sim does today) it will require the crew to disconnect the AP as they descend down to near minimums. (Usually around 200 ft above ground, depending on the chart for that specific approach). Then they need to hand fly the plane to the ground.

When you give the plane to AI copilot, your computer will fly the plane to the ground as if a person were doing it. That’s how the reverses etc are getting engaged.

Hope this clarifies some concepts that were being lost in discussion.

Blue skies and tailwind,
J

[PZL104]

@trex5365

Autoland - a subcategory of ILS, which is a subcategory of instrument approach. In actuality, Autoland is referred to as a Category 3 ILS approach.

Cat 3 ILS includes nose wheel guidance.

A real life A320 coming off the factory line will have Cat 3 capability. Many older ones will not as there is cost to upgrade the avionics.

Autoland has nothing to do with the ILS category.
It doesn’t matter if it’s CAT I, II or III, autoland basically works on any ILS equipped runway.

CAT III has nothing to do with AP rollout.
On some aircraft the AP disengages at touchdown, but they still can fly CAT III approaches.

Even the oldest A320s have CAT III capability. CAT III and autoland are most likely customer options.

[trex5365]

Yes, I was not aware that Airbus had developed autoland independent of CAT III. Thank you!

[dreampage]

Well guys, I can happily report that I don’t need to wait for the autoland feature, nor do I have to use the FBW version that can do it. In the meantime I learned to land manually with the default A320, even with the super low framerates my laptop produces. After the AP catches the glideslope it’s actually quite easy to stay on it and land smoothly. Now there’s only one week until the Xbox arrives and I can actually do it with proper graphics.

[NeoKingRthur]

Well, practice does makes perfect…

[dreampage]

If I can land at 9 fps imagine what I’ll be able to do on console with 30!

[SierraHotel2873]

You get immediately promoted to Captain or even Chief Pilot ;-).

Enjoy and have fun.

[DanDaredum]

Disconnect the AP at about 300 ft and land manually, Flare at about 50ft and retard when it tells you.

[FSNAVTc]

Great advice above, especially about ignoring ATC’s plea to go to some ridiculous altitude while on approach.

I would also suggest to always have the actual approach plate in front of you, whether a paper copy, Navigraph, FAA or another service. This will give you all the appropriate frequencies and the expected altitudes for the approach. For the airliners, you are also probably flying a STAR. Those charts are also readily available and will give you the correct altitudes as you descend towards final.

Keep learning and getting better!