Been holding off. Here's what I think now

“But I will remind you: this game has been in closed alpha and beta for months.”

Oh, give us a break! The developers just delivered the entire world, and you complain about partially missing functionality in some autopilot subsystem?

And apparently you have no idea about software development: I am pretty sure they had high priority issues to fix during the alpha and beta, and considering the size of this project they really did deliver!

Yes, I get crashes every then and when during flying, which is annoying. Like after 4-5 longer flights or so… probably some memory leak or whatever, and the OS just kills the process (haven’t checked - I am more in absolute awe about the scenery!).

And about your occasional frame stutters, well: you haven’t even disclosed your specs, but this is a “next-gen simulation”: expect high demands for your hardware.

But hey! You have a gazillion of setings which let you adjust the quality and such. Maybe you should simply acknowledge that your hardware simply does not cut it. I play “only” in “full HD” resolution, and yes, I do get stutters - but I am from the generation that played flights sims at 1 FPS back in the 80s.

This is the FUTURE of flight sims, it is finally here!

And given the announced timeline of support of 10 years to come (!) I am sure there will be PLENTY of improvements - in both content and performance/quality - to come.

So give them developers some time - THEY ALREADY DID A GREAT JOB!

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Developers are people too. They have families they probably want to see again after crunching 18 hour days 6 or 7 days a week before release. Give 'em a break.

Things work, but not all things work. They will be fixed.

As the learned fellow says above, you lot don’t know you’re born :kissing_closed_eyes:

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Abriael,
Your praise of FS2020 for what it is, and it is pretty amazing in many respects, is understandable and warranted. I flew over my neighborhood in Tucson and even the stores looked like the real thing with real signs. I have just begun to explore other cities and it is astounding. But to say someone is wrong to say “I expected more” or to say no game (flight sim in particular obviously) ever launched in a better state is extremely subjective. FS9 had some bugs when it launched on CD but every instrument in the Autopilot, 99% of the ILS approaches, worked. Patches came later, as I’m sure they will for 2020, and things got close to perfect, as I’m sure will also be the case here.

But the fact remains that what we got on August 18 is not what we heard in the ads and the hype leading up to the release, so it is perfectly legitimate for someone to say we did not get what we paid for. If I order stuff from Amazon (or a thousand other established sites) and they can only ship part of the order, they let me know. That is what should have happened. It should have been clear that many basic systems were not ready yet and purchasers could decide to wait or buy now. That is fair business practice. Nothing to do with how good it is or anything. It’s great for what it does but it is not what we were sold. Period.
I am enjoying it very much in a VFR format but I was expecting to be able to do IFR…enough said.
I think it will blow away any sim out there once the fixes are in.

A little perspective… I’ve also been around flightsimming since the mid-80s (started with MSFS for Macintosh in '86, so not all the way back to SubLogic days, but still…) Was also in on the start of the alpha, from December on.

I’ve been lucky in not having any of the crashes or stutters or installation hangs. But I get how enraging those things can be.

I’m currently having a pretty decent experience with MSFS, in spite of everything that’s wrong. I’m mostly flying small GAs like the 152 in hand-flown VFR flights, so that’s playing to strengths. Visuals at their best are great, and it’s proving to be a whole-is-more-than-the-sum-of-its-parts experience.

That said - it feels like it was kicked out the door three months too early. I don’t blame the developers, I blame business-unit or division-level execs. I can think of a few reasons why corporate would go for an August launch decision, some more legit than others (book the revenue now is hard to defend, but you might decide to go early to avoid a rush of disappointed consumers around holiday season - because there are always going to be disappointed consumers and you might as well deal with them in August - or, related, you might decide to launch for PC and then work to get the house in order for the console launch).

Basically I’m OK with it as a limited-use sim with a lot of potential, and I’m hopeful it’ll come into its own in the next 3-12 months.

The main reason I wanted to comment was to correct some of the posts about how much better past versions of MSFS were at launch. They really weren’t. The original poster said that ACOF (that’d be FS2004, aka FS9) was great and it was. But that was the end of a development cycle that started with FS 2000, which was a mess, and continued through FS2002, which is where it started to come into its own. FS2004 was a final refinement - so basically the endpoint of a three-version run. Then FSX came out and started the whole cycle over again. It was a couple of years before any of us could even begin to get adequate performance out of it.

My point is that MSFS isn’t the first time that we’ve gotten the 1.0 version of a sim in a pretty raw state and had to wait for it to fall into place.

The other point I’d make - or more of a question, really - is about default aircraft. What was everybody expecting? Payware quality? Default aircraft have never been that. Those old classic versions of FS had bare-bones airliners in them that used the default GPS - there wasn’t even a cosmetic attempt at an FMC. GA aircraft were rudimentary and the flight modeling was simplistic. I didn’t start to appreciate the potential of the modern sim until Rob Young of RealAir published his freeware alternative flight model for the default 172 - I think that was for FS2002. That was the first airplane I came across in post-2000 FS that felt like a real physical object moving in an air mass.

Short version - current default aircraft are bad, or at best barely adequate because default aircraft have always been bad or at best barely adequate.

Now again - I’m not saying MSFS is great - it’s not. I’m not saying we should be satisfied with it - we shouldn’t. There are things to be concerned about - the performance issues, obviously, but also problems in the flight modeling that have the potential to make life much harder for third-party developers, like the poor turboprop modeling, the mixture bug and the lack of prop friction - those are fundamental problems that absolutely have to get fixed.

What I am saying that what we’ve got on our hands is about par for the the 1.0 version of a new flightsim. It has the potential to get better. Sometimes that happens. But basically, we’ve been here before.

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Steeler2340,
As I just posted in reply to Abiael, it is not “complaining” to imlpy “this is what we were sold and this is what we got”. The sim is amazing and will get better. But if you advertise and charge for a Flight sim that is both VFR and IFR ready to go after months of many people testing it… that’s what the buyer expects. It is not a matter of whether it is good enough for now. You and I are enjoying it so we think it is OK to wait for the other stuff. But it is an undeniable fact, not opinion, that we did not get a finished flight sim. And by “finished”, of course I don’t mean “perfect”.

Whether you get “what you paid for” or not depends on the value of the product, not on what you perceive was advertised, and a product perfect at launch is definitely not something that was advertised.

And the value of the product is objectively superior to anything that was shipped before at launch, and not by a short margin.

One thing is for sure: I can fly IFR with very few issues to none most of the time, so it seems that you folks are massively blowing the issues out of proportion, which you are.

Actually, that is very literally “complaining.”

What do you mean by

I didn’t “perceive” anything.I bought it based on what was advertised. Here is a quote from the ad by Microsoft
" Hone your pilot skills in a variety of aircraft from light planes to commercial jets with comprehensive flight models. Every aircraft includes highly detailed and accurate cockpits with realistic instrumentation."
You don’t think this implies the instrumentation in these aircraft working correctly?

Wrong. If you buy something that is described as having x, y, and z, you only get what you paid for if it actually contains x, y, and z. These aren’t subjective statements.

Well, that’s good to hear. If hundreds of posts by experienced simmers say they can’t, there is obviously an issue.

Here’s another MSFS ad quote
“Microsoft Flight Simulator is the next generation of one of the most beloved simulation franchises.”
I don’t know about you, but to me “next generation” means a step ahead, improving on what came before. So far that only applies to graphics. The planes (except for rare exceptions) don’t handle as well, don’t respond to instruments as well, flight planning tools and nav aids like the world map, for instance, is far less usable than the ones in past MSFS sims, and many (not me) are having performance issues unrelated to the quality of their rigs. Those are just facts.
I’m sticking with it because when the rest of the sim catches up to the advancement in graphics it will be amazing.

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What you quoted is extremely generic. The game includes a variety of aircraft from light planes to commercial jets, it has comprehensive flight models, highly detailed and accurate cockpits with a realistic implementation.

The fact that those conditions aren’t satisfied to the level YOU demand does not means they’re not satisfied. And they objectively are better satisfied than in any product of this genre at launch (which usually claim exactly the same thing).

Already addressed above. The product you purchased has x, y, and z.

Yes. There is. People love abusing hyperbole on the internet. IFR objectively works. It has a few bugs that can be easily worked around. Some love to throw around big words like “Unplayable” or “Nonfunctional” because they think it gives solidity to their argument, while hyperbole simply removes any merit to said argument.

It’s funny to see you call a mix of complete falsehoods and hyperbole “facts.”

Microsoft Flight Simulator is an absolute and objective improvement over every product in this genre at launch and even a lot after launch. So yes, it can certainly be defined the next generation for the genre.

And with this, I’m done here. I’ve said my piece and continuing to debate in circles subtracts time from my flying, which incidentally is being done without major issues completely IFR. I guess I have a miracle copy of the game completely different from everyone else’s… only I don’t. :joy:

Good day.

Abriael points out that he is spending time enjoying many aspects of FS2020. So am I and many others, even if we are concerned and disappointed about the August 18 release. (I, for one, never used the word “unplayable”.)

Here is the real problem-
It has nothing to do with which FS is better, was better, etc .If this was a whole new Flight Sim from a whole new company, and not from the same company that gave us FS9 and FSX (yes, they were improved along the way but were, like FS2020, pretty advanced for their time) then we could still be disappointed but understand they are new to the block and maybe we shouldn’t have had such lofty expectations.
But when we left FS9 and FSX things were (again for their era) pretty advanced and working as they should. Perfect? No.
Then a decade passes…we see close to a year of media about a next generation, state of the art flight sim that follows in their footsteps. Well, is it really that hard to understand why being faced with this amount of incomplete systems, maps, aircraft, etc we would be “complaining”?

And that is just the perspective of a long-time flight simmer. As for my other point, a general perspective on marketing and selling any product. I ask this differently: If you buy a washer and dryer and only the washer is delivered, is that ok? Sure, you can still dry your clothes- hang them up, etc. But did you get what you paid for?
Is it really wrong to expect a next-generation flight sim by Microsoft (who obviously know something about what’s come before) to have these basic issues resolved before release?
By not “complaining” about these things we encourage more products to be released “as is” and not as advertised.
I’m done with this topic as well. Said my piece now and I’ll go have some fun flying VFR.

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My opinion (after many hours of trying FS, and many, many more with X-Plane) is that for a realistic technical experience of what fly is like, you can’t beat X-Plane, but for pure joy of seeing things like they are when you fly, you can’t beat FS.

I make long flights with big jets on X-Plane and when I get there I load up FS and see the country. Too bad they couldn’t be combined, then we would have what everyone is looking for.

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You should have said, you can’t beat X-Plane with 3rd party add-on aircraft.

In time we’ll have them in MSFS too. When, is entirely up to the same folks who brought them to X-plane.

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You make a valid point, and I sincerely hope you are right.

I fly a default 737-8 in X-Plane and use Air Manager on a separate computer sepwith separate monitors to show instruments, as well as a Logitech switch panel and radio panel. All I want to do is duplicate that in MSFS and be able to add more peripherals. At this stage I am still trying to get the panels to work, and I am hoping Air Manager will come up with compatibility.

Microsoft teamed up with BING to get the scenery
If X-Plane was to be able to team up with Google, then that would be something!!!

Xplane’s Austin took people’s money and built a plane for himself.

Microsoft’s Bill and his team took people’s money and then eradicated polio, destroyed Apple’s monopoly in the then hardware and software market and brought you Windows, cloneable PCs and MSFS.

Big companies like Google, Apple etc are not fools. They look into and study people’s behavior and background before signing professional contracts with them. Valve employs qualified economists and psychiatrists for a reason. If XP/Laminar offered such a proposal to Google they would be laughed at and kicked out.

The only reason XP survived so far is because of the third parties.

Built or bought ? ( does not matter )
I say - Good for Austin … he worked hard and provided something that people wanted to buy.
If along the way, he was able to purchase his own RL Plane… GOOD FOR HIM.
Nobody HAD to give him money !!!

Nobody has to give Microsoft & Bill Gates money either. – you can always give 2-3 times as much to Apple.

Nobody forced anyone to purchase MSFS2020 (mislead maybe a little), but if one feels one has made a mistake in buying it, I believe you have the option to return it and get your money back. ??

This is what :“I think now” – and kept on Topic :moneybag: :small_airplane: :moneybag: :desktop_computer:

Yes, but 3rd party planes, if you want IFR (even VFR in many cases) still need the FS2020 ATC to work correctly.

Well at least until we get the Internet connected up with “real people” ATC via VATSIM going on MSFS2020 Platform. I hope that’s in the works.

I ended up with Pilot2ATC as an preparation to go to VATSIM later.

I have come to the conclusion that AI ATC with random, non-obeying people and live traffic can never provide you with a realistic ATC experience.

For single player and only AI planes, an accurate ATC would be nice though.