Both official gliders should have stronger adverse yaw requiring use of rudder for turning

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Are you using Developer Mode or made changes in it?

no

Have you disabled/removed all your mods and addons?

yes

Brief description of the issue:

Both official gliders do not have enough adverse yaw effect (DG almost none, LS8 a little more significant, but still not enough) when doing uncoordinated turn (that is, without any or improperly synchronized rudder input).
You shouldn’t be able to do effective/normal turns without rudder input in gliders.
Expected changes:

  • increase all adverse yaw effects - when pushing control stick to the right without rudder input initially glider should move nose to the left (sic! due to additional drag on ailerons and misalignment of lift force vectors on wings due to different AOA and chord line) at greater bank angle this also means that nose moves up above horizon, then glider starts to slip to the right with noticable airflow noise (more turbulent airflow), even some small fuselage vibrations and clear yaw string signal of misaligned airflow, the whole glider should feel off balance, suddenly the nose should fall to the right (fin effect), but the process of returning to balance and aligning with the airflow should be painfully slow.
  • trying to do uncoordinated turn should result in very ineffective and slow entering into the turn.
  • at slow airspeed rudder should be pushed way more (less effective) then it is now and then at a high speed (at least initial impulse should be very effective).

Provide Screenshot(s)/video(s) of the issue encountered:

I recorded a RL demonstration of adverse yaw effects in 15m glider (with greater wingspan both dg1001 and ls8 should have it even stronger) specially for feedback to MSFS glider designers:
DG-101G adverse yaw demonstration - YouTube
I try to turn the glider without using rudder, only using ailerons to the right - please notice the unintuitive trajectory of the nose, how long it takes to actually start turning to the right and how the glider falls to the right loosing some balance before aligning with the airflow.

Sadly when flying official gliders in MSFS I often catch myself not using rudder as there are no or not enough significantly signaled bad effects of uncoordinated turns (I have all assistance options turned off).
In RL gliders, especially with long wingspan like DG1001 and Ls8 have even more pronounced adverse yaw effect, way more than GA planes. Many RL gliding instructors complain that pilot-studens who used sims before trying to learn gliding have bad reflexes and do not use rudder. This can lead to fatal accidens as many gliders are way more prone to falling into spins - often when pilot does incorrectly final turn to landing which mostly results in death. Whether you like it or not your simulator will be often used by young people as a supplement (and to cut traning costs) of basic gliding training, if you want to have clear conscience you did not contribute to unnecessary deaths please make use of rudder neccessary for all turns in gliders.
Adverse yaw and requirement to use rudder should be significant to the point that non RL glider pilots would think that the flight model is broken, but this part of gliding is just as unintuitive as helicopters behaviour during takeoff and landing - do not be afraid to do it realistic.
For gaming peple you already have assistance option PILOTING → AUTO-RUDDER and by default it can be on. Unofficial gliders have very good solution with option to adjust adverse yaw effect strength (from 0% to 100% so everyone can adjust to the level correct for his rudder pedals and what he experiences in RL).

Sebastian Kawa (17 times RL world glider champion) commented (my own translation below) article about some RL glider fatal crash due to spin (highlighting importance of correct rudder training):
The problem of modern training is the lack of learning to properly control the legs, the rudder. Generally bad control technique and bad coordination. And this is badly taught by badly trained instructors. They teach students after simulators or after flight training, where the legs are not used as hard as on a glider, and you do not fly as close to Vs in turns as on a glider. The Puchacz is a normal glider, not a parachute, and this is the student’s first verification before flying other gliders. If the glider nose floats to such a student, excited vertically with incompetent control of the ailerons only, he should not go any further. Then such a pilot would like to fly with something better, and then he would have problems. For example, try the JS1 21m! There were even oscillations and spins during the aerotow! I do not hope that this opinion will reach the minds of those who teach. I rather expect hate, but oh well. Such a world. And the badly trained pay for it.

Although I am great fan of using simulations as a supplement and training tool at current flight model state of official gliders I wouldn’t recommend it to any student-pilot begining RL training. Because of bad adverse yaw and rudder many RL glider instructors are currently strongly against using sim for traning - let’s try to change this view by correcting proper adverse yaw/rudder mechanics.

Detailed steps to reproduce the issue encountered:

Turn off any assistance options, use clear sky weather to avoid turbulence, fly straight and then push control stick to the right without any rudder input - compare missing adverse yaw effects with RL footage I attached above.

PC specs and/or peripheral set up if relevant:

does not apply

Build Version # when you first started experiencing this issue:

SU11 and 1.29.29.0


:loudspeaker: For anyone who wants to contribute on this issue, Click on the button below to use this template:

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

Very important !!! Very important remark and recommendation supported by rl video material and rl practice of an experienced pilot. Implementing the correct behavior of the glider shouldn’t be too hard for the devs either.

1 Like

100 percent agree.

Combine bad rudder ailerons coordination with flying close to the ground (mountains) at slow speeds plus unexpected gusts it becomes a recipe for fatalities.

1 Like

I agree with everything in this bug report. Please give us realsitic adverse yaw values!

(also for other aircraft, rudder pedals are not just there for taxiing, but that’s what MSFS makes people believe! More realism and more education for people is needed instead of arcade implementations.)

3 Likes

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

yes

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

current flight characteristics are unrealistic as per the original description

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

yes, I used to fly gliders in RL and the application of rudder when turning in the sim is not very accurate modelled. Of course it also depends on the glider model but in general one can fly the glider without applying much rudder at all.

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

I always felt that adverse yaw was missing in every aircraft. I always knew that it is more pronounced in gliders, but even normal aircraft can be flown more or less without rudder input in the sim.
This is something that needs definate attention.
I hope it will happen before next summer in Europe when real-life and virtual gliding season begin.

3 Likes

Adverse yaw and the correct reflection of this via a functioning yaw string is a critical flight element to gliding and safety. Under certain conditions, such as a low final turn this can be fatal. Being a simulator, many real life pilots, myself included, maintain a level of currency and accuracy of flying safely during the non-soaring season. Such a critical omission can teach real pilots bad habits that can potentially be fatal.

1 Like