The CL-415 is woefully underperforming compared to its real-life counterpart. It struggles to reach anything above 150 knots even in a clean configuration.
The cruise speed of the CL-415 (loaded) should be 180 knots.
With a full tank of water, it’s almost impossible to take off without going over 100% torque (which breaks the engines).
I don’t know if the engines are too weak, or the plane is too heavy, or some other FM issue.
If applicable, which aircraft is experiencing this issue:
CL-415
[PC Only] Did you remove all your community mods/add-ons? If yes, are you still experiencing the issue?
No mods
FREQUENCY OF ISSUE
All the time
REPRODUCTION STEPS
Load up the CL-415 with full tanks of water and 50% fuel. Observe the struggle.
YOUR SETTINGS
N/A
[PC Only] Are you using Developer Mode or have you made any changes to it?
Tricky one, it does seem like the 415 is either a little under powered or over-dragged.
The take off problem is a skill issue. It’s not nearly impossible, just technical and challenging. This thing has one of the better flight models available.
Bind the probes to manual control and put them down before you’re on the water.
Touch down around 80kts
right After touchdown bring the power to the top of the green and start trimming nose up, Flaps 2
Keep the scoop speed above 70, above 80 is better
For takeoff, Flaps 2
If you’re using the gauge, set the trim to between +6-8 (nose up) then don’t touch the elevator until you’re airborne. If you’re using the cheater numbers it’s about 25-35% nose up trim.
As long as you don’t dump all your speed on the water it’ll come off fine.
Oh, I can scoop…I usually keep it 90 to be safe (a bit bumpy, though). But it shouldn’t be this difficult.
Taking off from a runway is also a struggle to get airborne.
Other than that, she’s a beaut to fly…but I have a feeling the engines are either set to blow apart too quickly, or are underpowered. I should be able to cruise @ 180.
I disagree. If you’re scooping at 90 then you’re right on the edge of lifting off. Too much power (but still in the green) will have you lifting off either side of 95 while mid scoop.
If you are having trouble getting off the water from 90kts you’re doing something wrong. In game it will complete a scoop from touchdown to takeoff in 12-15 seconds when handled well. But it only takes one funny bounce or a dig to turn that into 30 seconds or more on the water.
On land the 415 can rotate quite quickly and a takeoff can quickly look more like air braking, but a gentle rotation can help with that.
I kind of agree that it seems like it’s either a little low on power or a little high on drag, there’s a number of possible factors, but it is completely capable in game if your skills are at its level.
This was already mentioned by a few of us in the base 415’s thread. But yes. The 415 is extremely underpowered as well as it’s scoop programming is also wildly inaccurate. The 415 IRL, with a full load of water, or 1,600 gallons roughly and a typical load of around 2-4 hours of fuel (firefighting aircraft never fly with more than this on firefighting missions to keep the airplane in it’s best performance margins), can achieve a 1200FPM climb rate and fly at 180 knots. The aircraft in game, cannot approach this at all. The scoop speed is also listed at a unrealistic 60 knots. This is WAY too slow for the real airplane. Per the actual pilot info on them. They have to scoop water at best maneuvering flight speeds for avoiding possible ground obstacles while scooping. Which means they scoop at no lower speed than 80 knots (92mph). Ideally, scoop speeds on them are between 80-100 knots. 60 knots, as dictated int he missions is actually so unrealistically slow, it’s 8 knots below the 415’s stall speed. Which again, according to real world pilots. They are not allowed to get anywhere near that speed unless they are landing. Not scooping. So that too also needs to be corrected. Being that slow means 2 things. You cannot maneuver around obstacles, nor climb safely. At 60 knots, you’re obviously not flying, you’ve landed, no lift and are unable to scoop. The career mode mission setup is wildly inaccurate. Along with the aircraft’s performance.
IRL CL-415 max operating speed with a load of water aboard is 180 knots. Top speed empty is around 194 knots.
IRL Climb rate of a 415 with a full load of water aboard is 1200 FPM.
IRL typical water load on a 415 is about 1,621 gallons of water.
IRL It takes about 12 seconds for a 415 flying at 80-85 knots to scoop 1600 gallons of water aboard.
Nice to see some great tips in here for the 415 and validation with RL aspects that it is in fact underperforming. I have been “enjoying” flying it since I unlocked it in Career mode but man… you need to pick missions carefully due to the lack of performance. A few points from what I have read.
I have FS and RL time… I mention this only to indicate that I do have some experience to draw on when I make the comments.
Video game aspects: Do not just accept a mission for Extended Attack, I believe some of the missions like so many in the game are just randomly generated and therefore not tested for peformace and completion ability. Although it is highly likely you can do them all… some are just so challenging under this AC peformance. I attended a Fire in Flagstaff and had no chance, small lake high altitude… click the misson and check the briefing carefully for a suitable scoop site etc etc. Even my last mission which was a success was in Florida, flat, no terrain and a huge body of water… and it was doable but only cause I absolutely milked the A/C into the air.
I have mapped scoop and dump keys separately as well as the mission keys. I try to not fill to a full scoop on the first couple to keep the performance in hand but the sim mission does not like leaving the scoop zone not full… frustrating. I have also dumped the water when skimming the trees and the a/c wont fly to come back and do it again… etc etc.
The SIM scenery is great and the aircraft is fun to fly at times but just too much of a “boss fight” type of mission creation. Should really not be this hard.
Besides short scooping the remainder of the tips above are quite helpful to help you fly the a/c.
Also, I read at another forum about no missions but it looks to me like the more initial attack missions you do in an area the more that there are extended attack missions. I have heaps to choose from.
Hello everyone. Any news? The CL-415 continues to be underpowered and is not good at all. Loaded with 70% fuel and 100% water it does not gain altitude. The nose detaches from the water but then it cannot gain altitude. I have been passionate about Canadairs since I was a child, I know very well how they work, my father works in there. I have photos, videos of manuals. Let’s hope they fix it. Do you know an email to write this feedback to? Here I have the impression that no one reads
Works fine for me, following the real life procedure and config, read first post
But yes even if you never goes on the yellow part of the trq arc, engine get used a bit faster, have to buy new one every 6 ou 7 flights
How can you say it works well? You can feel and see that it doesn’t have the right power in the engine. I am a pilot in real life and I have known Canadairs since I was a child. Trust me, in reality they are not like that. They are much more powerful.
It hardly works “well.” It doesn’t fly close to accurately at all. To be honest, with how this plane flies in the sim currently, it flies like it’s PT-6s are tons of hours overdo for an overhaul and rebuild. Good way to test it compared to the real aircraft is load it with about 40% fuel and a full 1600 gallons of water like they do IRL and see if you can climb at 1200 FPM after scooping. You wont get close to that. They also cruise, loaded at 180 knots. Scoop at 80 knots. The list goes on to how bad the implementation accuracy is for this airplane is. The only thing that seems accurate on it right now in terms of weight and performance, is it’s weight and load capacity. In short, the aircraft currently flies like it’s down about 500-800shp. At least. On top of it’s scooping speed being way too slow.
Are these ChatGPT numbers? It doesn’t have PT-6’s. The normal cruise is quoted on some sites at 180kts so I don’t imagine the loaded cruise is identical. I’ve also seen 1170fpm as the normal climb out so I find your “loaded” numbers suspect.
The scooping speed isn’t too slow, the mission button (Z) is too locked too slow. You’re still welcome to fly it at the proper scoop speed, with the right bindings, and it’ll be on/off the water in the appropriate ~12s.
The water physics have always been terrible in msfs but this is a saving grace for seaplane ops. It’s a flight model that has a lot of demands placed on it with load shifts and land/sea ops but it manages it all pretty well.
The current speed limitations as quoted in the career mode missions state you cannot scoop any faster than 60 knots. This is where the inaccuracy for that comes from. In free flight it’s a non-issue obviously. My mistake on quoting the wrong Pratt & Whitney Engine though. It’s the PW123AF in the 415s not the PT-6.
As far as the flight data goes, none of what’s posted is from ChatGPT. This is all from real world data and personal experience around the platform and it’s pilots. As well as official documentation. The state and federal fire divisions in the USA uses specific asset flight tracking software (known as AFF) to follow assets assigned to the state or federal resources in which you can routinely watch CL-415s assigned and their flight speeds to and from scoops, which are between 170-180 knots. Which matches with United States Forest Service manuals for their operation. The USFS/NIFC handling manual of their cited operating speeds for the airplanes on mission. 170 knots for normal/economic cruise and 180 knots for fast cruise. Maximum speed is listed as 187 knots.
NIFC Handling Manual:
In addition to, you can check in Appendix E - CL-415 Aircraft Parameters and Specifications where it specifically lists the climb rate of the 415s at 1,300 fpm loaded, and 1,800 fpm empty.
Those aren’t aircraft manuals, they are guidelines and not for pilots. Airplanes don’t generally have universal performance numbers, but people on the ground don’t generally read airplane charts. There’s virtually no doubt it’s underperforming slightly but it’s not like it’s anywhere near game-breaking.
The 60kts thing is a non-issue in career mode as well, you can scoop above 60kts and you can put the probes down before 60 kts (including in the air before touchdown). Yes MSFS made a mistake with that speed, but it doesn’t hold you to that.
So really, the main problems are just that its ~10-15kts too slow at the very top end and it climbs at 750 instead of ~1200. Neither of these are significant or practical issues for operating the plane in Career Mode. Both of these are relatively simple fixes either to power or drag numbers (i think it’s got too much drag personally) that then require a time commitment to test. Not really a priority given everything else.
It may not hit the exact numbers but If it “hardly works” for you the simplest answer is to suck less.
Underperforming regardless. In cruise it’s agreeably slightly under what it should be. To me, 5-6 knots off is acceptable, but not 15-20 knots. I feel for airframe variability sake and modeling error 5-6 is pretty fair. But the biggest irk, is definitely only having about 42% of it’s climb performance while loaded. A 100-200 fpm flight dynamic modeling or airframe error/airframe variability might be acceptable. Causing engine damage in career mode where after only a few flights you need complete engine overhauls as many have reported. And even losing engines in mission. All that stems from this loaded flight envelope being as bad as it is.
Pilot skill in that aspect isn’t the issue. If the airplane can’t do it, it doesn’t matter what the pilot’s skill is. Is it hardly usable? That’s entirely subjective in where it’s being used. Derating it’s effectiveness in order to operate it safely means different things to different people.
Regardless. it’s underperforming and it’s worse in some aspects than others.
Voted. Also I get an overspeed warning around 150 indicated. Also the rudder has almost no authority on the water. None of the seaplanes have enough rudder authority on the water.
Ciao ragazzi, riprendiamo il post, dopo gli ultimi aggiornamenti sembra andare molto meglio. Il trucco è non caricare troppo con l’acqua.
Ora manca l’AUTOPILOTA. Sulla maggior parte dei CL-415 è oramai implementato. Li hanno praticamente tutti. Speriamo lo inseriscano il prima possibile, per le tratte medie di trasferimento sarebbe molto utile.
This has been reported at least 2 other times in 7 months and I have also responded to those posts in this forum, however, none of those posts seem to be getting any sort of attention by developers to fix the aircraft so that it flies how it’s supposed to. I realize that the bug fix section works upon a vote system. So I’d ask that all those votes be combined into a single thread or something so this issue can be fixed. The fact it hasn’t been addressed at all for the better part of 7 months since first reported and was reported several more times in the base aircraft’s feedback AND still hasn’t been addressed is why I’m making a 3rd mention of it in the hopes it can get enough attention or have votes merged from the other threads. And this is to have the climb rates, cruise, and top speed of the aircraft properly fixed.
On behalf of everyone in this aerial firefighting community. Please fix this airplane. The fact that aerial firefighting is such a small unique niche, the amount of people to vote for it to get it above a more common used civilian platform to get it noticed isn’t conducive in this case. People that fly these aircraft regularly are being ignored for other bugs, while this one has been reported for the better part of a year now, continues to exist and go unfixed or even acknowledged.
Unless someone can update that SU3 has fixed it’s performance issues.
References to the issues and all the specifications as to how the aircraft is performing versus how it should have all been mentioned by myself and others in those two other threads posted below.
As I’ve stated and others have in those 2 separate threads:
Aircraft Issues:
Aircraft max speed loaded 150-160 knots ============> Should be 185 knots loaded.
Cruise speed 150-155 knots ================> Should be 180-185 knots
Cruise speeds should be; 180 knots loaded, 185 empty
Top Speed should be ~194 knots (empty) ~185 knots loaded
Aircraft loaded climb rate is 700-750 FPM ===========> Should be 1,300 FPM Loaded 1,800 Empty.
