Force Feedback Question: How much better is currect FFB compared to old?

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Hi

I have started getting into flight sims coming from racing sims and Elite Dangerous. My current joysticks (twin T16000s and T Flight HOTAS X) are fine for ED but not good enough for precision flying that’s required for MSFS. I also have a Logitec Rudder set, which I am completely happy with. I am thinking about getting a ffb stick as I love my direct drive racing wheels.

I have an old MS Sidewinder FFB 2 flight stick so dug it out. In DCS World it works natively but in MSFS it requires 3rd party software.

Before I shell out 700+ odd quid for the ffb base and stick, how does my old Sidewinder compare to modern ffb sticks? How much better is the existing modern ffb for flight sticks (I know Moza’s base isn’t out yet) compared to my Sidewinder?

The reason I ask is that I ChatGPTed my V2 (released 2000) and asked it to compare it against the previous two iterations: the Pro (1997) and the FFB1 (1998). The AI talks about:

  • improved (reduced) magnetic cogging,
  • smother, more precise motors
  • higher force resolution for nuanced effects to simulate complex and subtle forces
  • higher torque

Coming from racing, chatGPT response is saying all the right things about my old V2. In what way are these new flight sticks better?

Thanks!

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I have the FFB2 (I must have 2 in reserve), and it works fine with MSFS 2020, but I use XPforce. I think I can’t give the address on this forum.

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Hey bro.

Yeah. I bought XPForce, that was the third party software that I was referring to. The ffb from that is on par, if not better than DCS World, which is pretty bonkers iyam!

How have you got yours setup? Fancy sharing your builds please?

Regards
Andy

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I have never found any force feedback controller that works well with any version of FS, and I think I tried them all. They are always just half a second too late so you move and then get a ‘bump’. Also there does not seem to be a good control option in the sim to model aerodynamic pressure differences related to speed to forces. I have flown some aircraft that have extremely light controls parked that get surprisingly stiff when to get close the max speed. Never had that in a controller correctly simulated. All they seem to do it rattle.

I’ve given up. FFB2 is probably still the best, I loved that generation of sticks.

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Here are the settings I have, and it is XPForces that launches MSFS

XPForce_mJwbyJFPMH
XPForce_mJwbyJFPMH375×429 6.87 KB

XPForce_TpbyCkUgEq
XPForce_TpbyCkUgEq375×429 8.5 KB

XPForce_KLRMzYm48b
XPForce_KLRMzYm48b375×429 7.26 KB

XPForce_7y6iVws9f9
XPForce_7y6iVws9f9375×429 8.29 KB

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Thanks!

I think that’s pretty close to what mine is set to. I’ll give those tweaks a go.

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Ahh

I come from racing sims and I love my ffb wheels. I don’t know if you also enjoy racing too but ffb wheels really make a difference.

My starter ffb wheel was a G29 which is very much a low end wheel but it’s still transformative with regard to racing compared to a wheel/controller with just basic rumble effect. Now I am using a direct drive wheel and racing is so fun.

I have found the ffb in racing is really responsive to the point it’s more informative than immersive. I’m not sure I will get the same from an ffb stick. I asked ChatGPT and I am not sure how much better the newer ffb sticks are to the the V2 Sidewinder. The AI said the comparison between V2 and modern ffb sticks was like going from a top end belt driven drive wheel to an entry DD wheel.

I’m not sure what to do, I do need a new stick because the sticks I have are twin t16000 and a T flight hotas x and they’re not precise enough for MSFS.

I don’t want to spend shed loads on a ffb stick if a quality none ffb one will just be slightly less immersive especially if the ffb is not as immediate as it needs to be. But I don’t want to wish I had bought one and regret not buying one!

Any advice gratefully received

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Andy,
The racing apps have interactive FFB built into the program. We don’t have that with MSFS. The only available 3rd party FFB option is the XPForce app which is very basic.
I have and occasionally use the ol’ Sidewinder FFB2 joystick and I believe at this time it’s as good as it gets.

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The feeling of real flight controls in the air is completely different to the feedback you get from a cars steering wheel on the road or a race track.

In a car, the suspension and steering is specifically designed so that you can feel changes in road surface and the interaction between the tyres and the tarmac, so you can be aware of changes in grip or other situations that need your attention.

I have flown a Robin HR200 and a Cessna 172 IRL, and in neither aircraft do you get feedback from the stick or yoke in the same way that you do in a car, and certainly not in the same way as pc sim controllers. Yes, the controls get heavier the further they travel, but a decent flight sim joystick will already do that for you and the effects of wind, turbulence, air pressure changes etc. are felt through the seat much more than through the stick (in my limited experience).

Through experience of flight sim from basic to a much more capable setup, I’d say that a quality joystick with a really good gimbal / spring / damping setup is more important than a ffb stick, which is less focussed on the quality of movement and may have slow or outdated software.

If you really want your home cockpit to feel like an aircraft, I would think a motion simulator base with pitch, heave, roll and yaw is likely to give you a much more realistic experience than some thumps or vibration through a joystick.

Obviously a motion base is a very different question in terms of space used and the amount you need to lay out, but if you’re thinking of spending a few hundred towards this, I would focus on a quality joystick like the VKB Gunfighter base with either the MCG Pro or MCG Ultimate grip and a grip extension. This would give you a more realistic amount of control travel and a far, far superior gimbal and general feel compared to your existing Thrustmasters.

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I’m a proud user of the VKB Gladiator NXT EVO Space Combat Edition joystick. It’s an excellent and precise piece of equipment. I’ve noticed that many virtual pilots on this forum also use VKB joysticks and everyone highly recommends.

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I have seen that family of sticks highly recommended…

So now the question of the differences between the Gladiator bases and the Gunfighter ones… I will ask that on a new thread as it is a little offT.

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I agree that the feedback from a steering wheel is not comparable to the feedback of flight controls in real life.
The main feedback you get from a yoke/stick in an airplane is the force you need to apply to keep the aircraft in level flight and that you aim to “trim away”.
Once properly trimmed, you basically let go of the controls and only hold them with a “light hand”, maybe correcting some turbulence induced changes in flight attitude, which you feel in your “lower back” and not in the yoke, as you correctly mentioned.
In the single engine piston planes I flew there also wasn’t a notable difference in the force needed to turn the yoke at different speeds, while the change in push/pull forces between lower and higher speeds was significant.

So for the sake of this topic that would mean to emphasize the settings for the pitch axis and keep all other settings at a fairly low level.

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The problem is the controllers we have today adorned with all kinds of necessary hats/buttons/levers/switches aren’t FFB. So to get whatever modicum of FFB you’d actually get from FS is going to be giving up a ton. Flight forces are mostly going to come from your behind rather than a yoke or pedals, other than the occasional increase of force in certain conditions for a small aircraft with direct control of the surfaces without assistance. I would imagine just modeling wind forces against flying surfaces in a cub and translating that to dynamic FFB would be quite complex, let alone how many aircraft have FBW or hydraulic/electric systems that only transmit artificial sensations. Something like DCS would culminate mostly around a HOTAS setup and would be more for the fun of combat so you could almost arcade it up some and it’s great. But flying IFR in a Bonanza, not quite the same thing. But a motion rig would be great.

Racing on the other hand is almost completely driven by FFB directly through the wheel with SOTP forces/effects being a far distant level of importance as more of a immersion improvement. Some sort of buttkicker usually covers most of it. The brake pedal setup is probably as important than the wheel overall, and that’s not FFB, other than ABS buzz maybe. A spring brake pedal is far more of an impediment in racing than a non FFB GA yoke setup. I would say flying the average GA to mid size aircraft, a buttkicker makes more of a difference than FFB would.

Even just opening doors with a buttkicker is a great effect in FS, some buzz from engines, touchdown, flaps, etc. That yoke doesn’t suddenly let go like a wheel does when you take too much curb in a 956 and you just about throw an hour’s work into the opposite wall(especially if you amp up FFB to the point where you can actually hurt yourself), your heart actually jumps a beat. And you’ll remember that exact spot lap after lap because of it. From that same perspecive, I don’t find myself ever longing for FFB on the Kodiak, but opening the doors is quite satisfying.

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A Buttkicker sounds like fun. But I don’t think there are any aircraft (or even the basic simulator itself) which has active force feedback coded into them. Until the time comes when MSFS actually implements FFB then we will only see minor fringe activity with the next generation of FFB flight simulator controls.

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Well, i’m using the HF8 by Next Level Racing, it’s a haptic seatback with 8 motors that spin up as signals are received from the game, using (again) third party software, in this case “Simshakers for Aviators”, it’s not as fast as the buttkicker software as it has to spin up the motors, but in all honesty, you dont really notice it in flying (the lag i mean) as you would in Racinggames. Then again, it also adds another level of immersion to your racing, again, with third party software… i use Simhub (yeah, also a DD owner :wink: with heusinkveld sprints, TH8RS shifter) as the software just has that little extra bit of settings one can adapt to one’s liking. I also have a buttkicker, but since i usually fly late at night, the gf is asleep in the other room, so that’s a nono in the evening. The HF8 is dreadfully quiet, it’s a very nice piece of kit.
As for my FFB stick, msfs doesn’t support FFB natively (yet), so again, third party softwares are required. I’ve tried a number of them, but i never reached the level of information/satisfaction that i had from “the older games”
… i mean, setting trim and the stick going backwards and staying there is all great, but what i actually want to feel is what the airplane is actually doing, not producing a force against what i’m trying to achieve, as it’s just not locked to the actual aerodynamic surfaces on the airfoil by way of cable.. it’s just emulated. I’ve flown a cessna in real life for almost an hour, to fly beautifully smooth, you need but a little pressure to achieve this, but you will feel the elevator and aileron inputs and the feedback from the wind rushing over them, as i found out as the instructor said “your controls” as we had just barely made it 300 feet in the air in the middle of a left hand bank and the first thing i did was pull the yoke “a bit”,(which was WAAAYYY too much input, lol) but instantly regretted and learned… right then and there the connection between me and the actual control surfaces on the outside grew… i’ve not had that with msfs and any third party software just yet… but i’m hoping one day, the FFB guru’s from other games will jump on the msfs bandwagon and actually make it work near perfect. Anyways, welcome to Flightsimming, have an enjoyable flight! (i’m using an old Logitech G940 FFB stick&Throttle, Thrustmaster TPR’s and alot of buttonboxes on an obutto revolution frame… and be sure to re-enforce the wheelbase as it will not be able to hold the forces of a dd-wheel with that flimsy twig they welded on the bottom… collegue of mine welded a metal strip around the bottom backside of the plate and it’s holding upto 12nm so far.)

Anyways, back on topic… the future is going to be cool. There’s a couple of devs working on awsome pieces of kit… it feels to me like FFB is making a great comeback after all these years!
The new FFB will be stronger and better than ever before.. then again, it’s stood still for what, about 15-20 years in (microsoft)flightsimming?

Kindest regards, and sorry for the erratic post… coffee not working yet

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Have you tried the Brunner CLS-E Yoke? It does exactly that change in control force depending on speed, and it really excels at that task!

Unfortunately, it is a rather pricy piece of equipment…,

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I think the motion platform is the more ideal FFB system for flying. If you’re crabbed and bump through turbulence, the seat moving and your instinctive yoke reactions to that seat are going to be quite convincing. The yoke itself with force isn’t going to convey a sense of slip or bumpy air. 4 patches of rubber is all that connects a car to the ground, so obviously the wheel sensations are paramount.

I think the peripheral I would most appreciate would be replicating a servo-actuated GA trim wheel that moves with AP and is always dialed exactly to the FM.

Other than that, someone really needs to make a somewhat nerfed but effective motion platform that gets most of the job done without being astronaut training or a cat killer. Really akin to just giving the basic sensations enough you’d react to them, keep the price moderate, and the hardware simple. Like a $2-$3000 PnP reliable thingamajig. Incorporate smooth sturdy motion, and of course buttkicker functions as well. Something like an iButt.

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Looking at the Ytube reviews the Next Level Racing HF8 Haptics (A$300) and the free Sim Shaker for Aviators looks like a good compromise - Fathers Day present??

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I have tried that one. Very good, very costly, but it still had that delay that bugs me so much.

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Maybe a settings issue. I‘m the first to admit that the control software Brunner provides is a bit cumbersome.

But I finally managed to dial mine in for the GA planes I use and I‘m very happy with the result!

Anyways, with all the new devices coming, it will be interesting to see how FFB will develop…