"heat only" lift adjustment in SU12 Beta is an improvement but needs strength adjustment as well as altitude

[MSGamerTag01]

Thank you for using the Bug section, using templates provided will greatly help the team reproducing the issue and ease the process of fixing it.

Are you using Developer Mode or made changes in it?

NO

Have you disabled/removed all your mods and addons?

YES

Brief description of the issue:

SU 12 Beta has reduced the ALTITUDE the “heat only thermals” go to but the STRENGTH is still too high by a substantial margin, particularly for urban landclass (and agriculture?).

Provide Screenshot(s)/video(s) of the issue encountered:

Provide coordinates (DevMode > Options > Display position)

North from airport ICAO SSSS as shown on map.

Provide time & date of the observed Weather issue

Aug 22 2023 14:47 local, WINTER in Argentina

Detailed steps to reproduce the issue encountered:

Measure the AMBIENT WIND Y above the urban development which is visible along the coast.

Please note the location chosen to demonstrate this issue (on the coastline in Argentina in Winter) was simply to find a clearly delineated strip of urban landclass. We do not believe the coastline itself was relevant. The issue is the same (but far more widespread) flying in developed regions such as the USA or Europe, where there is Urban development pretty much everywhere so it’s less obvious where the lift is coming from as it is so prevalent.

The “heat only” thermals above any area containing buildings (or roads?) appear to have the characteristic of the diagram below (of course we have no information about what Asobo has actually implemented, only what we can infer by flying our gliders in the sim):

The issue is the lift generated by this “heated ground” is exceptionally strong and continuous, such that a very low performance aircraft (e.g. Cessna 152 engine off) can stay aloft simply by flying along the continuous lift. Gliders, which have much higher soaring performance, can fly for hundreds of miles in this lift limited mainly by the Vne of the aircraft, rendering any other lift in the simulator irrelevant which clearly suggests a tuning imbalance.

Somehow we need a way of reducing this lift, e.g. as in the illustration below:

SUGGESTION: If there was a setting in the weather options that scaled the “heat only” thermals WITHOUT affecting other forms of lift, that would be a possible fix and might be the least risky.

Alternatively the “heat only” lift strength could be reduced for all landclasses by 80% but then we have an anxiety that “cloud lift” might not be adequate for cross-country soaring as we have not been able to test that in the SU12 Beta as the lift from clouds is currently overwhelmed by the “heat only” lift.

Please note sliding the wind speed down to below 3 knots / 1.5 m/s DOES have the effect of reducing the “heat only” lift but has the unfortunate side effect of killing any ridge lift so this hasn’t proved to be an effective mechanism.

PC specs and/or peripheral set up if relevant:

Not relevant, can be provided if necessary.

Are you using DX11 or DX12?

DX11

Are you using DLSS?

Yes, but this is most likely nothing to do with graphics.

---

For anyone who wants to contribute on this issue, Click on the button below to use this template:

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

[f16e66o]

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Yes

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

The massive abundance of updrafts generated by these landclass types eliminates the need to apply any strategies used by glider pilots in real life (ie seek lift below clouds)

[BossRaccoon7630]

As is, nothing happens in the clouds in SU12! I think a lot of us were under the impression that SU12 will address the lift/drop - air movement in the clouds and produce appropriate turbulence depending on the cloud thickness, etc…

[CptNautilus1970]

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Yes

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

Ground lift (heat only) is way too strong so that it basically allows us to fly a glider in a straight line over urban areas.

The effect glider pilots are looking for, on flat terrain, is having to find small patches of ground lift where they can circle to gain altitude and then to glide to another such patch. Without that effect, flying a glider feels too much like flying a motor plane.

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

[ANRI8496]

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Yes

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

Pointing out the errors, let’s make suggestions taking into account the correct operation of the real weather, and not just the weather presets. Why implement additional settings in the weather preset menu if it won’t work when using real weather?
If Asobo cannot introduce smoothing of surface classes in the flight area, then no reduction by 80% of the influence of ground thermals will help correct wind simulation. Wouldn’t it be easier to abandon modeling of terrestrial thermals altogether?
We didn’t have land-based thermals before SU11 and we felt good in flight! Who asked to implement their implementation?

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

[VHEEE]

But if you kill off land based thermals , would that not kill off thermals (flat land flying) on blue days , which will be encountered on live weather . thoughts?
I do upvote the need for live weather thermals and not just presets, we can do that now although in limited form

[VHEEE]

Maybe a solution for urban areas is if a thermal is recognized in the sim it could have a radius of influience where another strong thermal can not generate . thus giving the simulation of hot spots which happen in rl as we know.
This will also help in the desert regions of namibia , australia and the usa where the land classes are similar . this would also act like an urban area being one type of land class .
Has anyone tested the deserts/semi desert reigons of the world .

Thanks for testing the beta guys

[DementedCorn327]

@ANRI8496

Why implement additional settings in the weather preset menu

What are the new settings that have been added to the weather preset menu in SU12 ?

[EPPRglider81]

In RL it is quite common to have few separate cores near by under the same big cloud - we often successfully circle at different areas under single cloud and observe each other to after a short while move under the fastest rising glider, so while good separation between clouds and their thermals would be desired it would be wrong it it would result in single thermal core per cloud.

This would be even more pronounced in cloud streeting where line of “cloud thermals” should provide enough lift near the bottom of elongated clouds trail (one mostly touching another) to enable traveling for tens of kilometers without alt loss.

[VHEEE]

yes i understand that but in sim and the urban area problem with ground thermals it doesn’t work as of now , this was a simple solution to elevate the problem

[FF403]

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Yes

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

I applaud this bug report whilst recognising this is a temporary workaround that is achievable in the short window we have between beta and final. I also applaud Asobo’s commitment to working towards an accurate terrain based heat map.

It should be pointed out however - maybe for SU13 or later, that there is actually no such thing as Ground Heat thermals and cloud thermals. Maybe this is something that gets lost in translation - and if so, I apologise, but actually - there are only thremals. The presence or absence of clouds above the ground hotspots is ENTIRELY dependent on the presence (or lack of) moisture in the atmosphere at any given time. So with dry air, we get “blue days” (no cumulus clouds) whilst on moist days we get cumulus appearing - the size and spread of the cumulus being determined by the amount of moisture in the air.

At the moment, I suspect there is some frustration because we know from out multiplayer group flights that if we all press the “Fly now” button at preceisely the same time - we all see exactly the same sky and cloud formations - so it seems clear that we are starting each flight with a pre-defined CLOUD MAP. This of course means that in order for our “Thermals under Clouds” requirement, the software has to reverse calculate the wind trajectory back to a point on the ground. If it happens to land on a “Ground Heat” spot, then we suspect the heat calculation is added to the Cloud thermal calculation to produce excessive lift. This is the thing we cannot currently test simply because there is too much interference from Ground heat.

Going forward then. The ultimate goal is an accurate terrain based heat map that will work in both live weather and weather presets, and from that start point to draw the clouds (or not) with the correct spread and density commensurate with the moisture content at the time. In doing this, we will achieve what can only be good for pilots of all flying machines - EXACTLY the same terrain heat map AND EXACTLY the same sky. In order to achieve this, Asobo will need to look at the reasons why these bubbles of rising air become detached from the ground to move upwards at a rapid rate. I’m talking here about the requirement for a 2 Degree temperature difference between the hot area and surrounding terrain. This requirement is well documented and can be googled rather than me extending this post any longer than it already is.

If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video: