HOSAS for Flight Simming?

User Support Hub Hardware & Peripherals
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I’m in the mood to replace my 20 year old Saitek X-45. Besides #msfs2020 and #msfs2024, I do play a couple space games.

I’m looking at the winwing hosas setup; I’d opt for the angle adapters on both sticks, so I’d be able to remove one or both adapters depending on how I like (or don’t like) them.

Anybody use this setup to fly MSFS? If so, how do you like using an angled stick as a throttle?

I’m also looking at new HOTAS setups, but the “good” ones seem to be out of my budget. (I’m looking to spend less than $400.)

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Moved to User Support Hub for community support.

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This is just my personal recommendation, but if I were in your situation I would avoid the WinWing Ursa Minor series of joysticks.

The technology is not patented or anything, but the gimbal used in these looks very much like it could be a close copy of the one used in the VKB Gladiator NXT Evo joystick, and I do not know if the implementation isn’t quite right, if they didn’t properly understand how it works or if there are batch / quality control issues, but there have been a lot of reports of problems with these sticks.

I won’t link to any in particular, but if you use the well-known internet search engine and enter “Winwing Ursa Minor Problems” there are a lot of entries. Try searching this forum too for “Winwing Ursa.” Needing help configuring any new hardware or software is completely understandable of course, but a lot of the posts you’ll see are regarding mechanical issues and failures.

The VKB Gladiator is the main competition for the WW Ursa, and although slightly more expensive it is, and has been for years, the absolute stand-out and only product in the “entry level to high-end controls” category.

If you try the same searches in relation to the Gladiator as with the WW mentioned above, you’ll find the majority of posts are from users needing help configuring the software. This isn’t intuitive at first because it is quite complex, but once mastered the configuration and calibration settings are incredibly powerful and granular.

The Gladiator comes in left and right-handed versions, and there is a Standard or Premium option for each version too. The Premium version adds a second rapid-fire trigger, and an analogue mini-stick & 8-way hat in place of plain buttons, and is preferred if you can stretch to it because of the extra mapping flexibility offered.

VKB have a NA distributor that usually carry stock, so delivery should be quick. The Premium Gladiator is $165 each, and the angled “Omni” adaptors are $30 each. There is a slider in the base which can be used as a throttle to get you going, or if you want something more substantial there is a 3-lever, 8-button throttle quadrant (the GNX THQ) in the same range for $70. This can be mounted separately, or directly onto the side of the Gladiator base, giving you the HOTAS you’re looking for. If you only used one of the Omni adaptors instead of two this would be $430 all-in, and I cannot recommend this setup highly enough.

I have had the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro, the Thrustmaster T16000m and the Logitech X56, and the VKB products are in a totally different league when it comes to build quality, flying feel, adjustability, durability and most critically, customer support.

The sticks are designed for the user to be able to dismantle and maintain / add to / upgrade it, which is superb for right-to-repair and upgrades if they become available. If you need any help, there are tutorials and guides on the VKB website and forum, and many more on YouTube. Questions posted are usually answered quickly by knowledgeable users, and company reps are always at hand on their forum.

I started out with a Gladiator NXT Evo following recommendations on here after my Logitech & Thrustmaster sticks all failed in various ways. I needed some guidance with the software at first, but my Gladiator did over 1,000 flying hours in MSFS and was mechanically faultless. It still looked and felt exactly as new when I had the opportunity to retire it and upgrade to the VKB Gunfighter base with MCGU grip.

This picture shows my Gladiator in it’s final configuration, with the THQ throttle, SEM (Side Equipment Module) and FSM-GA (autopilot) modules all attached to it. This was taken as it came out of my setup, so after a LOT of use.

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Wow, thanks for the info! I’d not heard of any issues with winwing, so that’s a very appreciated head’s up, and I’ll do some research.

My main issue with my x45 is that I have to take my right hand off the stick to use the mouse. (Also, I’ve used it for literally 20 years, and I got a bonus at work so I have a small bit of cash and I deserve an upgrade, right? :slight_smile: )

Additionally, I was 99% fixed wing until I tried a helo in VR a few months ago, and it was so fun that I’m leaning more toward helos every time I start msfs now. :slight_smile:

I recently tried a yoke and right throttle; that alleviated the x45 issue, but turns out flying helicopters was awkward.

So, I have been thinking that maybe a dual stick setup might let me semi-easily move between left stick/right throttle to right stick/left throttle. (I do play Elite and Eve a very, very little, but not nearly enough to justify a space setup usurping MSFS.)

But as I’m journeying thru this discovery process over the last few months, today I’m starting to think that a nice right stick, a small / uncomplicated throttle quadrant like the old ch throttle quad, and a diy button box in the middle might be the key. I think vkb or even a virpil stick would be nice, since I wouldn’t be buying their expensive throttles.

I continue to be open to suggestions! :slight_smile:

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Definitely read around and check comparison reviews before you buy anything, and as I mentioned don’t forget to look out for users experiences when it comes to customer service, or getting advice and assistance on their setup. VKB and probably Virpil as well are way ahead of the others in this respect.

All the product options are on the VKB NA website, and the “Support” section has links to their Discord server and the head office forum - take a browse in there before you look to buy anything for sure.

If you’re playing Elite or any other space game, two sticks could be very handy. With very fine control needed for helicopters as well, every response curve and button action on the Gladiator can be fine-tuned to suit.

The high end VKB or Virpil throttles would use up the majority of the budget, but you can very easily do without anything so complex, especially if you’re flying VR and can’t see all the buttons! But I’, a big fan of the little THQ throttle module, adding so much immersion and functionality as it does. Even though I have since been able to move up to another stick and throttle, I still use the THQ, SEM and FSM-GA autopilot modules every time I fly:

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Interesting! Center stick, throttles on both sides? So, you use the center stick with either hand depending on what you’re flying at the moment? What about helicopters?

I’ve been researching every day for months, and have asked questions in discord, forums, and facebook groups…this is the first thread that I’ve gotten any reasonable replies from so far. :slight_smile: And nobody has mentioned any issues with winwing, so I’m grateful that you’re replying! Get’s me out of my head a bit and makes me go “oh, yeah…probably ought to research the DOWN sides to all the gear I’m looking at, not just look at the good stuff.” I get this way with cars too… :smiley:

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Ha ha, don’t get me started on cars! I had a sporty little Fiat in the 80’s which was hilarious to drive, but I should have thought about the electrics - they were so bad - really not suited for a rainy UK!

Anyway, the stick is in the middle just as it (or a yoke) would be on anything apart from an Airbus. I’ve tried out a couple of yokes but frankly prefer the stick feel, so I fly everything with the Gunfighter. I probably fly the DA62 the most, but am getting into helicopters as well, so it suits fine like this in my right hand. The throttle I use most of the time is the S-Tecs Max, on the left. The THQ module on the right side is mapped for Prop & Mixture (blue & red, respectively), plus all the A/P controls and flaps & gear are on that side. Obviously it’s a bit of a hybrid of left & right seats, but I know roughly where everything is.

I should point out, I haven’t owned anything by WinWing, and I know they have a lot of kit on offer and a lot of very happy customers, but there are recurrent mentions in this forum and in the Facebook groups about various issues with the Ursa Minor. It seems like customer support isn’t always brilliant either, but obviously search around, view some videos and see what you think. Maybe even start a more pointed question like: “What’s the best, UM or Gladiator?” I’ll try and stop droning on in that thread too, but I’d bet the majority would favour the VKB.

I tried the Gladiator against my older TM & Logitech sticks and there is just no comparison at all. When I was looking to change again, I went in with an open mind and compared the Gunfighter against the Virpil high-end offering on an extended loan, and for me the VKB just felt that little bit nicer.

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So at this point I seem to have it narrowed down to either the winwing Orion 2 Viper EX bundle for $294, or the VKB Evo Space for $220. :smiley: More research commencing soon!

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The Orion 2 Viper EX bundle (I presume the bundle / combo part refers to base + grip?) looks like a bargain for that price, as the base includes an all-metal roller bearing gimbal with adjustable springs & damping. There’s no throttle mechanism or even a slider though, as far as I can see.

The Gladiator also has ballrace bearings and adjustable springs & damping, but the gimbal mechanism uses pincer jaws instead of bearings & cams to meet it’s price point, where it’s competitor is the UM.

Of the two, the WW would feel a bit nicer and smoother in flight by virtue of the gimbal, but you’re not really comparing like-for-like. The Orion base is a different proposition to the all-in-one Gladiator, as the WW has no throttle and also doesn’t twist, so as well as a throttle you’ll need rudder pedals too.

If you’re going to consider a cam & spring gimbal design, VKB’s Gunfighter MkIV with the SCG grip is $349. It has a twist function for rudders, but again you’re going to need a separate throttle.

Here’s a rundown of the various options, explanation of the tech behind the gimbals, and suggestions of various combinations and upgrade paths:

There’s not a lot of comparison reviews with definitive conclusions but this one gives a little detail, although the format and commentary is a little annoying:

Keep on checking reviews and maybe take a look and do some searches on r/hotas as well. I’m sure you’ll enjoy whatever you choose, but do figure in the user support / customer service element too. I found it very helpful to be able to get quick and comprehensive answers on software use and future hardware changes from the VKB forum and on here. Should the worst happen and you needed to contact the manufacturer or distributor about a failure, I’d want to be confident in that support too.

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Hello Wild.
I’m using the Thrustmaster HOTOS One, on Xbox X! Works great, very happy with it.
I fly the a320 Airbus, also the a319, a310, a318. The F-18 Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon!
I’m part of the Flight Crew in MSFS 2020, and 2024.

Add me if you like.
Rich

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Did you take the plunge on a joystick yet?

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Thanks for the reminder! I was gonna reply but forgot. :slight_smile:

I weighed all the pros/cons for several more days after my last post.

Virpil: just too spendy for me. VKB, ridiculous shipping costs that I can’t make myself pay for…what if I don’t like the stick? I’m stuck trying to sell it. WinWing? Price is ok, but again if I don’t like it, i’d have to return it for a loss.

Then I saw the Thrustmaster SOL-R announcement, and did as much research as possible (not much available, but I watched it all, several times each).

Then, with all that in mind, I pre-ordered the single Thrustmaster stick from Amazon. :slight_smile: And with all the amazon points I’ve been getting lately while trying other solutions, I got it for $178US. I’ll have it around April 18th.

Will I like it? Will I be able to live with the ball/spring setup? I have no idea. But what I do know is that, if I don’t like it, I can return it for free.

Please don’t hate me @MagicQuasar1176 :smiley:

I also bought a used ch throttle quadrant; 6 levers and 6 two-way buttons. It got lost in the mail, but finally arrived about 2 days ago. It’s going to do just what I was wanting from a throttle at less than $45, with 12 buttons thrown in to boot! Plus, the case is so large and empty inside that I’m seriously thinking of adding some DIY buttons / knobs to it if I can’t get everything I need from the SOL-R stick/base.

I’ll report back once I get the Thrustmaster!

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Ha ha, no hatred here, I had exactly the same indecision. Besides, we’re only talking about a plastic joystick for a little computer game, right? :wink:

I wish there was an easier way that we could all get to try out in person any gear we’re thinking of buying like this, especially as they get more and more expensive. Unfortunately it seems to be an issue everywhere, and even big electronics retailers don’t have much stock out on display, except at the lowest price levels or the console controllers.

It’s a shame the VKB NA distributor and seller doesn’t carry stock in the USA, and import each order from China, that seems like an unnecessary waste of time & expense.
The European distributor is in the Netherlands and fortunately for us they often have kit in stock, so I usually receive gear from them in 5-6 days from ordering.

If you want easy returns (and especially if you have discount points), it makes complete sense to buy from where you did. I suspect the new Thrustmaster stick will feel like an improvement over the 20 year-old Saitek, & if it doesn’t then you can easily return it.

I do like the look of the new grip, a big improvement for Thrustmaster, as is the way you can change the grip or put it on a new base in the future. This will be very helpful when it breaks (kidding!). In all seriousness, the AVA base looks another big step up in quality, just like their TPR pedals.

Truly, I hope it’s great and that you love it, and you’ve also found a great bargain with your new throttle! Between the two, you’ll have a proper feeling throttle with prop & mixture levers too, and more than enough axes, buttons and dials to cover pretty much anything.

For the future, and just in case you do opt to return the TM for any reason, take a look at the most well-known internet auction site, and search for “Thrustmaster Joystick” then “Virpil Joystick” and “VKB Joystick”.

I am absolutely not still trying to sell you anything here, this is really just for reassurance in case you were concerned about re-selling anything you didn’t want the expense of returning.

You’ll see there are very few Virpil or VKB joysticks on there, and that’s because once people get one then they tend to love & keep them. But if you tick Sold / Completed items, then you’ll see that the ones that do sell still go for big money. I got £25 more for my 1000-hour used Gladiator than I paid for it new.

Definitely report back, I really hope you get on well with the new combo!

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This joystick looks excellent for flightsim: HALL effect sensors, ministick, two POV, encoders (which is very useful for autopilot settings), several buttons.

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How’s it going @WildDoktor - did the Sol-R arrive, and how are you finding it?

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Here’s a not-so-quick summary of my thoughts so far!

Build quality: excellent. Strange choice of mounting hole locations on the bottom.
Bonus: ambidextrous! Right now I have it setup as left stick; once I’m ready I’ll swap it to right stick and try some helicopters…and that’s what’s cool about ambidextrous.
Ball/spring mechanism: Different. :slight_smile: The center to off-center transition is very good, but it takes more force to move it from the center than it does to move it the rest of the way, so it’s a bit odd. Almost a reverse progressive feeling? Not even sure how to describe it. I’m still getting used to it, but it isn’t a deal breaker…it’s just, different.
Software: meh. Windows joystick dialog lets you change the colors and chance a couple things from buttons to axis. The TARGET software that comes with it is really unintuitive, and even Thrustmaster support admits they have no idea how to use it, so for now it’s just MSFS config and Mobiflight. Both work fine.
The bad: only bad thing is the Z-axis (rotation). Several reports (mine included) that there’s a hardware deadzone, so no software config can fix it. It’s like driving an old Chevy pickup…you move the steering wheel left or right about an inch before the tires start turning. I may have to go back to rudder pedals, which defeats one of the main reasons I bought a stick like this…I have little room under my desk for pedals and wanted to eliminate them. We’ll see if i can get used to it.

So except for the z-rotation (and that’s unfortunately a big deal), I like the rest of it a lot!

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Glad to hear that it arrived and you’re getting used to it - they always take a bit of adapting to. Interesting what you said about the movement, which I guess is down to the gimbal and spring setup. Most importantly, are you happy with the change compared to the old Saitek?

Flightstick software is obviously a dark art for the uninitiated. It took me a long time to feel properly confident with the VKB configuration program but hopefully you can get Target to do what you want it to do, with a bit of experimentation.

Shame about the deadzone in the twist axis, though the analogy of the old pickup made me laugh! Obviously you don’t want to be taking it apart and replacing components, but could it be returned and exchanged, or not worth the hassle? As you say, a set of rudder pedals negates the issue completely, bit that’s a pain if you didn’t really want to squeeze them in.

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Sorry, but your reasoning doesn’t take into account that for every VKB and Virpil product, there are dozens of Thrustmasters sold. The number of Thrustmaster products sold is incomparable to the other brands, they’re in many shops, a long list of products. It’s not about quality, it’s just statistics: more users, the more likely you are to find them on auction sites and second-hand.
AVA and Warthog have a very high quality. And I bet you will not find second-hand AVA base so easily.

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There are still thousands and thousands of VKB & Virpil products out there, and both have had products available in various different Mk’s for many years, yet still they hardly ever become available used. If the second-hand market is slow to invisible, it’s because people like & keep them. Quality does sell.

The Warthog is not high quality compared to the other similarly-priced options. Sure, it has a metal grip and contactless sensors so it should last well, but it has the same hopeless plastic ball-and-socket gimbal as all of their other sticks. Try these gimbals side by side (like I have) with the much less expensive Gladiator - let alone a Gunfighter IV or a Mongoose - and you’d toss it away thinking it was broken.

I haven’t tried an AVA base personally so I couldn’t comment on it precisely but I suspect Thrustmaster will find a very limited market for it, apart from the hardcore brand fans. It still has a lot of plastic compared to the established high-end bases from VKB & Virpil, it doesn’t have any damping (adjustable or not) and it doesn’t have spring pre-tensioners, so it wobbles at the centre. The few reviewers that have compared them directly put the AVA behind the others and you’d also have to contend with their customer service in case of any issues. Plenty of potential buyers will also be tempted by the various emerging force-ffedback options.

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It remains a speculation based on a simple observational correlation, sorry.
I’m not defending the brand or saying that you’re wrong, you could be right. But that’s not indicative in this case if we don’t know exactly the proportion of sales between the brands, so it’s impossible to say.