Same for a pa28 161 or 181 with a student and instructor… it will happily leaf stall to the ground in a long boring up-and-down mushing motion… not very exciting actually
Spiral dives are somewhat more exciting 
Ok so what exactly are we missing in MSFS flying high quality simulations like the 310R, 414A and HJet?
Xplane physics what exactly?
The 414A’s aerodynamics/physics feels absolutely amazing on ground and in the air.
Never a dull “fly on rails” feeling for a while now in the latest MSFS builds.
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Well, I remember a number of posts where you were unhappy with things in MSFS, and I remember you being unhappy with XBox. So if XP is working better for you, I’m glad you found what you are looking for.
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@CaptainMooreLBC You are talking about stalling a default 172 and then bring up ‘professional pilots’ - which is it? Because a professional pilot is not going to load up XP12 to work on stalls. If you are using your sim to work on physics based maneuvers you should probably book some time in the real plane as neither sim will react appropriately.
It always helps to read a post properly before replying.
I said “XP12 is for professional Pilot TRAINING”. I doubt many professional Pilot’s have the time to play around in XP12 or MSFS. XP12 is a good product for “ab initio” training to show POTENTIAL Pilots how a stall occurs and how to avoid it in the first place. Then you take that knowledge into the cockpit and practice it for real.
The fact is - XP12 demonstrates more realistic flight dynamics than MSFS. Period.
I welcome comments from any REAL Pilots - just show me some evidence that you are licensed. There are WAY too many fantasists on here talking rubbish. I can spot you a mile off 
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The Asobo 172 stalls just fine, it even will drop the outside wing in a power on climbing turning stall, which the XP12 version isn’t consistent with.
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Again, for training if you want to demonstrate a stall you’d just do it in the airplane, not the default 172 in X-Plane 12. Most PROFESSIONAL schools use APPROVED trainers based on XP10 and 11, nothing will be approved on 12 for a bit.
You’ll be doing lots of stalls in your PPL training.
Certificated, current, and flying often. https://i.imgur.com/WC1kFyV.png
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it is not though. XP12 without a Pro licence, and without going through FAA certification (along with all the FAA approved controllers etc) is just as much a home simmers game as MSFS. Any patches/changes to the sim, and the certification is invalid.
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Two real life, certified pilots responded to you, @raynen and @piratedpanda.
Seems like you are blowing things out of proportion and XP 12’s flight model isn’t as good as you say it is, compared to MSFS, I will stick with @raynen and @piratedpanda ‘s expertise.
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Realism fanatics and aviation technology nerds see two important factors:
1.) The turbine nacelles are rendered with absolute realism, with a turning compressor behind the N1 fan and a turning low-pressure stage turbine in the exhaust cone of the engine core.
2.) Airbus RATs have realistic 2500psi instead of 3000psi (beat this, Fenix!) 
Fans of aircraft-rodents see with pleasure that realistic 2500psi are shown on the ECAM.
3.) Flight Factor and FS Labs. (yes, FLIGHT FACTOR cockpits - I love their airplanes because they don´t look like some Half-Life² mod or PlayStation2 graphics but bring on some serious PMDG and Carenado quality! I don´t have an FS Labs Airbus yet but when I buy X-Plane12 I will get it, looks very good too in YouTube videos)
These three aspects force me to run X-Plane 12 too on my PC, just like I do with every other sim.
Point 2 will get deleted as soon as the Fenix-rodent has been taken care of by maintenance…
Helicopter flight is awful in MSFS so MSFS still needs to catch up on X plane 12 which has a fantastic rotary wing physics .
MSFS also has melted photogrammetry style scenery which looks awesome fro 5000ft but is a melted zombie apocalypse at less than 1,000 feet and it has no seasons and the trees are frozen and the world is not able to be interacted with.
While Xplane has a fairly generic world without a lot of add on it has seasons and the world is interactive.
I like both sims for different reasons but I hope they both keep raising the bar of what they are good at.
Except that isn’t how it’s done in the real world at all
You don’t “ab-inito” anything in a desktop simulator, and absolutely positively not for anything that involves stick-and-rudder control and feel!
Simulators are purely procedure trainers (and that includes airliners)
(Yes, real pilot, certfied and current)
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There is currently no native MSFS flight model for helicopters. All the helicopters on MSFS are just forked flight models of planes.
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no, not really. Many of the good helicopters use an external flight model (AirlandFS) and are actually pretty good.
Try the freeware H125 with AirlandFS.
Looking forward to proper native helicopter support in the 40th anniversary edition though
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Here’s a quick video I recorded with photogrammetry off in MSFS.
Even “photogrammetry off mode” in MSFS still looks tons better than XP12’s autogen.
It actually feels like Los Angeles in MSFS unlike XP12 where every place feels and looks the same. As far as visuals I feel XP12 will never hold a candle to MSFS.
Until MS/Asobo works on those rotary aerodynamics the Airland FS tool works fine and HPG did a very good job on the H145 considering it’s independent of Airland FS and any rotary support native to MSFS yet.
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Helicopter flight dynamics is not natively simulated in MSFS currently… all that is going to change in a big way after SU11 (40th anniv edition) releases with lots of improvements in the core aerodynamics engine for both helicopters and gliders.They presented some previews and details about this recently:
Helicopters: Xbox Booth @ gamescom Live Stream - YouTube
Gliders: Xbox Booth @ gamescom Live Stream - YouTube
Now this is not directed at you but more in general given what I’ve seen on this thread… Quite frankly, this repeated mantra from Austin and XP diehards about XP’s supposedly superior flight dynamics is… well it’s pure hogwash now, and those who try to speak to the quality of MSFS’s aerodynamics engine purely based on its default aircraft are either being disingenuous or are clueless about properly flight modeled aircraft that are available in numerous forms for MSFS currently… I get why they’re doing it since when it comes to visuals, lighting, weather, atmospherics and overall simulating of earth as a whole XP is woefully behind MSFS even with XP12 (it is however a commendable effort that improves on vanilla XP11, not so much XP11 + add-ons though)… so they try to harp and spread misinformation about XP being all about flight dynamics and realism while MSFS is just about visuals and entertainment. Newsflash: MSFS is about excelling in all aspects of flight simming… once SU11 releases, the core flight dynamics and how the plane interacts with the atmosphere/weather will be that much better, add to that some high fidelity aircraft being included in the default fleet like the iniBuilds A310, helis and gliders core support, and class-leading default avionics in the G1000 Nxi, etc, etc and MSFS presents a very compelling flight simulation offering.
The one area of flight dynamics MS/Asobo need to fix of course is ground and water handling, but that has been identified by Asobo and a plan is in place for rework, starting with SU10 (see the recent release notes: Added new parameters to [FLIGHT_TUNING] section to control the static friction at high speeds and set how sticky the wheels should behave when rolling at higher speeds. These parameters are not used yet on any aircraft). Much more is planned of course in this area as stated by Seb in recent Q&As.
IMHO, quite simply put, the advantages MSFS has over XP when it comes to world rendition, weather, visuals, default offerings in avionics and aircraft, breadth of 3rd party support etc are far far greater than any specific/perceived advantages XP might have in flight dynamics. In fact, I think the MSFS flight dynamics engine is already more capable than XP, and will only be more so after SU11.
As competent aircraft developers continue to learn the MSFS platform and release newer incarnations of their birds, the full capabilities of the MSFS flight dynamics engine will be seen. Already the likes of Fenix A320, Milviz C310, PMDG 737, Sting S4, FSW C414 show these capabilities… As a simmer having used XP and MSFS I feel flight realism in MSFS is at worst similar to XP’s and better in various areas (i.e. especially when interacting with winds/drafts, turbulence, etc). Many RW pilots of both GA and tubeliner aircraft also said so, including in this thread. And finally, an experienced development house like iniBuilds, having developed for both platforms have gone out of their way to say: Discord : “Just to be fully clear, our flight model in MSFS is on par to XP. So those still wanting to negate MSFS as a viable sim solution based on those reasons - don’t speak too soon.”. So ya, this canard about XP’s supposed superiority in flight dynamics is becoming more and more farcical by the day, especially as MSFS relentlessly advances from SU to SU, and Austin offers up this sub-par effort in XP12.
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I think many simmers here use both sims.
As an example of a simmer that enjoys both simulators my concerns right now are about the future of each platform. And the concern is valid because simmers tend to invest a lot in their platforms, we buy add-ons, we buy airports, we buy a lot of extras over the base sim so if a sim just disappears we not only lose a platform but a lot of time and money.
I think I can voice what many of us think if I say the biggest concerns about these two sims today are that if MS pulls the plug then there is no more MSFS, it is dependent on the Azure platform and the streaming of scenery completely and yes today the money equation is favorable but I don’t know if this will continue just forever and worst MS does have a record of pulling the plug from sims in the past.
On the other hand XP does not depend on streaming or a big software company backing up the project but if people and devs start to move to MSFS the platform may decline, we also have records of this happening with P3D, a sim can exist but if no add-ons are developed it doesn’t really matter if it still exists or if it closed shop.
Hopefully the best scenario for me and I think everybody is for both sims to thrive and get better in a healthy competition but at least to me that scenario is difficult to envision today. If you ask me right now I think XP is taking the P3D road and MSFS will probably make it shrink by attrition and I really don’t want that to happen. Reality speaks, XP12 was launched and the reception has been very mild, streamers keep streaming MSFS, devs keep developing for MSFS and the anniversary edition is coming.
Only time will tell.
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I’m gonna say, after SU 10 which seems to mostly be a success, MSFS has pushed XP 12 another step closer to becoming obsolete. If SU 11 is as good as it looks, I think SU 11 will really be the beginning of the end of XP in the consumer market.
The clouds in SU 10 live weather are simply amazing. It puts the live weather and clouds of XP 12 to shame. Give XP 12 another 10 years, and I don’t think XP 12 live weather and clouds will catch up to SU 10. That’s how far behind XP 12 live weather and clouds are.
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I don’t think it’s about anything being obsolete. XPlane will always have its following, but it could never compete with MSFS in this regard. As long as the developers are profitable they can upkeep their sim. And why wouldn’t they be? Alternatives are always a good thing and there will always be players who use both or prefer XPlane. One will not force the other out of market.
Most markets are dominated by one company/software/solution but there’s always room for smaller ones to be successful and profitable.
Does XP 12 look profitable to you:
I think you also missed some of the earlier discussion. LR was forcing pop-up advertisements for XP 11 users after they spawned into the airport, to buy XP 12. That is a huge sign of desperation from LR, to annoy its XP 11 users like that, and that sign of desperation is probably because LR missed their sales for XP 12. Some XP 11 users were even calling it spam.
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Yes, I agree with you.
I was siming today in FS20 in live weather in the BN2 Trislander and it was quite amazing and immersive. Using DLSS (quality) I was getting around 50fps on the ground at EGNM and 60 plus fps in the air. The visuals were really good too.
This was on a 5 year old PC too only upgraded for a 2070S GPU.
On the demo of XP12 I got about 30-40fps with everything default at the same airport.
I think that XP even now (let alone after SU11) has a lot of catching up to do and I don’t think that will be that easy.
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