Joystick extensions: Good or bad for slow-flying aircraft (e.g. gliders)?

User Support Hub Hardware & Peripherals
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Extensions: Rods with cabling, that increase the length of the joystick from the gimbal. Purpose is to gain precise control at the expense of transition speed.

Example: You have pulled back the stick all of the way, to maximize the climb. But you then you decide to go into steep dive. Longer stick, longer time to make that transition.

For any kind of slow mover, such as gliders & slow prop planes (Cessnas, Douglass C-47), longer sticks seem like an advantage. Do I have this totally wrong? Or am I overthinking this, and stick length has a negligible impact in MSFS with these types of aircraft?

It’s not a dedicated flight stick thing. My Xbox series 2 has interchangable joysticks, of different lengths.

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Longer sticks should give more precise control - provided you’re using enough range and the hardware has high enough resolution sensors.

Biggest issue is a physical one, things like your legs and chair need to not get in the way.

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Thanks! Figured as much. Figuring 100mm (~4") will be better than no extension, but also won’t require too much extra space.

OT: Getting the impression that desk mounting (as in relying on suction or friction) is suboptimal at best. Ideally, the gimble should be anchored to something.

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Relying on suction or friction on a desk is indeed sub-optimal, not just for the obvious reasons but also because any slight movement will impair the precision discussed above.

If the gimbal in your joystick is suitable (and not all of them are) for an extension, it does make a noticeable improvement to precision and realism.

The joystick in a real aircraft will have a range of movement much larger than a typical pc gaming joystick, so anything you can do to replicate that larger range can only help.

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The trick is to avoid your voice raises 3 octaves each time you fully pull the stick.
Happy :small_airplane:

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Very good point about the effects the stick’s base moving on the desk. Extension, or not, you definitely sold me on the value of a desk/table clamp.

[quote=“MagicQuasar1176, post:4, topic:659748”]
The joystick in a real aircraft will have a range of movement much larger than a typical pc gaming joystick, so anything you can do to replicate that larger range can only help.[/quote]
Did not know that. Thanks!

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No worries!

The cabin in a Robin trainer or similar is pretty snug and compact, but at the extremes of travel the stick goes from the dash right back into your lap and will bash both of your knees, no matter how much you manspread.

Obviously you use only a fraction of that travel for the subtle, gentle control normally used in flight, but if you do need to make large inputs then the stick moves a fair way.

I use the VKB Gunfighter base / gimbal which has all-metal internals and can support being used with extensions. I normally use the 100mm extension for aircraft as a happy compromise between reality and practicality. Remember, if you do use an extension, the spring weight and possibly also damping will need to be increased to keep the realistic feel.

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I definitely wouldn’t consider using an extension on a desk, regardless of how it’s attached. Sound like an ergonomic disaster.

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[quote=“BeardyBrun, post:8, topic:659748”]
I definitely wouldn’t consider using an extension on a desk, regardless of how it’s attached. Sound like an ergonomic disaster.[/quote]
Really? Wonder if we a terminology issue? Looking at this desk mount from a company called Predator: https://www.predatormounts.com/products/predator-desk-table-mount-hunter-series

Another company, Monstertech, also looks like they make robust mounts.

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Well yeah, but your previous posts indicated using it on the desk.

Makes perfect sense with a mount that places it much lower down. However, you want to be confident that the base can be mounted sufficiently far back to allow enough forward movement with an extension added.

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[quote=“IR8300, post:3, topic:659748”]
OT: Getting the impression that desk mounting (as in relying on suction or friction) is suboptimal at best. Ideally, the gimble should be anchored to something.[/quote]
Poorly communicated on my part. Let me provide background:

  • On a mission to my first & last flight stick. Buy something that will last, and it will be cheaper in the long run.
  • Desk mounts: Something that a gimbal (base) mounts to, clamps to a desk or table, and allows a flight stick to lower than the height of the desk/table where the user’s computer sit. It’s nn added expense & complexity. Can I get away without it?
  • Flight stick with ANY length extension: Desk mount is mandatory, because the arm operating the stick would have to be elevated. (Even without the extension, any decent gimbal will add a few inches.)
  • Arguments from @MagicQuasar1176 & a video by Falcons Ledge made the argument for desk mount.

Bottom Line: Even if I waver on the extension again, the desk mount is mandatory. What spend oodles of $$$ on quality stick, if it not’s going to be setup properly?

Again, sorry if I wasn’t clear.

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I think there may have been a little confusion introduced by the reference to mounting a joystick on your desk. I think I (and possibly others) understood that to mean the joystick would be sitting (or clamped) on a desk top, with the joystick base at the same level as keyboard and mouse.

Now you mention the predator mounts, it is a lot clearer what you mean. A mount of that type, which allows the gimbal of the joystick to be below that level of the desk top is a very good choice, and the only realistic option if you also wish to use an extension.

The predator mount looks quite nice, and I like that they offer a version which fits specific good quality joysticks, but the shipping time of at least 4 weeks seems unnecessarily long. You can buy something very similar from Amazon and have it delivered tomorrow, for less expense. For example: 2 Set Desk Mount for Flight Sim controller, Compatible with Thrustmaster Warthog 10C&Throttle/ X52/X55/X56/Turtle Beach Flightstick/Winwing Orion 1&2/VPC T-50CM3/T.16000M FCS/TCA Officer Pack Airbus : Amazon.co.uk: PC & Video Games

I have something similar to these, just as a temporary solution, because the thickness of the desk I am using at the moment doesn’t quite allow me to fit my preferred choice of mounts. Once I can find or have made something suitable, I’ll switch over to the dedicated VKB mounts.

This method of mounting in general is extremely good however, and even the cheap temporary amazon mounts do a solid job. Here is my Gunfighter IV & MCGU with the 100mm extension plus throttle, ancillary controls and autopilot panel all mounted this way:

Gunfighter
Gunfighter1440×1920 294 KB

If you are on a mission to buy your last ever flight stick, I can’t recommend the high-end VKB stick enough. I have owned and tried out many different ones, and the Gunfighter / MCGU combo is in a class all by itself.

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[quote=“MagicQuasar1176, post:12, topic:659748”]
MCGU[/quote]
Don’t want to think about how many tens of hours that I have spent searching the Internet, for MSFS peripherals. But it has come down to Virpil & VKB, and former has inventory issues.

Throttles: Totally out of picture, because my focus will be gliders. So these are overkill 
 have seen my needs evolve in the past, for other hobbies.

VKB Gunfighter: Is this what are talking about? [Gunfighter IV ‘Modern Combat Edition’ Ultimate - Extended – VKB North America]( Gunfighter IV ‘Modern Combat Edition’ Ultimate - Extended) Impressive setup; you are clearly a serious flight sim enthusiast.

And care to comment about my research findings, regarding VKB?

  1. Both VKB & Virpil make premium products, and users seem to be divided. Both have their fans. Later is considered more of top tier, which why I’m looking at them currently; VKB is not even close to be ruled out.
  2. Virpil sticks are more generic, than VKB, which suggests that they are better suited for glider work.
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Understand re. the throttles, you can be happy to save $2-300 in that case.

Yes, I am using the VKB Gunfighter IV base with the MCGU grip and an extension. The configuration in my picture above would be the " Gunfighter IV ‘Modern Combat Edition’ Ultimate - Extended, Pro-S, with Twist Adapter" per the VKB US website. I have the longer 200mm extension as well, but it makes the range of movement enormous, and I find the extra precision is only needed in rotorcraft.

As to your findings about VKB and Virpil, I don’t have a lot of experience with Virpil, but they are both very well regarded. Whoever said that Virpil is more top-tier might have just been a fan, or perhaps they were referring to the fact that VKB offer a mid-market stick in the form of the Gladiator as well as high-end gear, whereas Virpil do not.

I like to do direct comparisons wherever possible before I decide to buy something like this, and was able to compare a Virpil Mongoose base and Constellation Alpha grip side by side with the VKB Gunfighter base and MCG grip, in use with MSFS. I preferred the feel of the VKB grip in my hand, and also the exceptional smoothness and feel of movement of the axes, with or without damping (which is adjustable). The dedicated VKB mounts are also a lot nicer than the Virpil ones, although they are more expensive.

I watched some video reviews before buying too, and generally saw a preference for the VKB, often mentioning long-term reliability. These reviews generally covered the Gunfighter MkIII base however, and in the current Mk IV guise it is even further improved.

My experience with VKB products started with the Gladiator joystick, which I found to be a huge improvement over sticks from Logitech and Thrustmaster. It was 100% reliable, and offered good adjustment of springs and damping, as well as the very flexible configuration software for setting up response curves. I added a throttle and some other control panels, most of which I’m still using after 4 years with zero reliability issues or signs of wear. If you need any support or advice, the VKB forum is a great source of knowledge and help.

As to which grip is the more generic, and suitable for glider use, that’s something I couldn’t really opine on. The VKB MCGU grip that I use has 3 8-way hats, two analogue mini-sticks, four buttons, two triggers and a lever axis all immediately to hand. Do I use them all, all of the time on every flight? No. But the controls are there if needed, and the mini sticks are very good for controlling internal and external cameras, and the hats work well for aileron and elevator trim.

If you wanted a less aggressive looking and button-festooned grip from VKB, the KG12 GF (Gen.2) grip is just $70, fits the Gunfighter IV base and can be used with either of the grip extensions. It looks and functions pretty much the same as the most basic WarBRD grip from Virpil: KG12 GF (Gen.2) Add-On Grip for Gunfighter IV – VKB North America (vkbcontrollers.com)

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[quote=“MagicQuasar1176, post:14, topic:659748”]
was able to compare a Virpil Mongoose base and Constellation Alpha grip side by side with the VKB Gunfighter base and MCG grip, in use with MSFS. I preferred the feel of the VKB grip in my hand, and also the exceptional smoothness and feel of movement of the axes, with or without damping (which is adjustable).[/quote]
Thanks for the candid response. And smoothness is very important.

Still of the opinion that I cannot go wrong with either Virpil Alpha Prime or the VKB Gunfighter IV 
 it’s a matter of which is a better fit for my intended use. Not satisfied with the # of reviews read & watched on both, to make a decision. (Could be close enough that availability decides.)

Ergonomics: The Alpha Prime comes in both left & right-handed versions, compared to the Gunfighter, which is one model for both hands. That’s good & bad for Virpil ==> Could mean that sits in one hand better, but it also means that I commit to one hand or the other.

Other grips: Has to be metal; plastic is not acceptable.

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If it has to be metal, then you’re looking at either the VKB MCGU or the Virpil Alpha Prime.
Both come in right-handed versions, but if it must be left handed then you only have the Virpil option.
Being happy with right-handed and having tried both, I chose the VKB. The grip was a bit nicer for me to use, and of the two the base felt a lot better.
This review gives a good insight to some of the thinking behind the MCGU grip, and touches on the stronghold desk mount too:

VKB Modern Combat Grip Ultimate Review! (youtube.com)

Check out the comments under the video too.

Note that this review was using the previous Mk III Gunfighter base. The current Mk IV has improved smoothness of movement & damping, added spring pre-tensioners, an improved controller and an even more bulletproof connector.

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Helpful vid, but the left vs. right hand issue could favor the Alpha Prime. But he did NOT sell me on the VKP mount; Predator or Monstertech.

It’s still close between the 2 brands, and hypothetically, if one were to stop making flight sticks, I would go with the other. Both look like quality products, and I have time to continue the vetting process. (If for no other reason, MSFS 2024 isn’t out yet.)

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Good luck, & enjoy whatever you choose.