Hey guys,
Looking for some advice to get better at landing without gps or ILS.
I understand I can enter a traffic pattern 1000ft above an airport, travel downwind til the airport is 45 degrees on my left/right, then turn and land. This works well.
But what if I want to land straight in and there’s no PAPI lights. How do I best judge when to start my descent?
Like I do when sailing I always try to pick out the best landmark right before the finial approach path to monitor and aim for it when it’s time plus I like to circle around a few times because I never go straight in
This is something you should not do if you are not familiar with the airfield. approach the entry point for the pattern or cross the runway middle in then sink and enter the traffic pattern. You need to follow the controller, he will advise the pattern or announce the position in your pattern at uncontrolled airfield, I never approach irl straight in.
Little bit of practice. In general, 3/4 mile base + 3/4 mile final would put you 1 1/2 miles out for straight in. Once you begin the descent it is a case of pinning your aim point. If it moves up you are descending too quickly and if it moves down, you are not descending fast enough.
If it turns out your approach is too flat then you have started the descent too soon. Make note for the next attempt and go around. If f your descent is too steep then you didn’t start soon enough. Make not and go around.
After a couple attempts you will start to be able to visualize the descent path and simply fly down it for that nice squeak, squeak reward. Lots of technical stuff will answer your question, too, but there is no substitute for screwing it up and creating that picture in your mind. Soon it will be a ribbon in the sky that you just follow.
I understand the pinning concept, but how do you judge distance in a 152? There’s no dme. At night it’s even harder. What cues do you look for to start your descent?
Is this about simming or vfr? In our area uncontrolled airfields close before sunset
1 and a half miles at 1000 ft agl. If I am at 10000 agl then I am starting the descent at 15 miles.
There really is no trick. It is look out the window and guess. The more times you are wrong the better you will become at making the judgement.
I guess, there is one little trick. Fly the circuit. When you turn final, make a mental note of what the runway looks like.
As I mentioned before, no substitute for practice.
What? Where do you live?
There are lighting requirements for night operations, but uncontrolled or controlled have no bearing on the ability to land. The only real difference would be there is someone to watch you crash and to call the emergency vehicles.
No point in getting a night rating if they close the airport on account of dark.
Southern West part of Germany. All local airfields I know operate until sunset or PPR. Anyway, just wanted to say if you are not fully aware of the airfield, night or day, i would recommend to enter published traffic pattern…
Thanks for the responses everyone. I’m certain there has to be a way to judge it from your perspective in the cockpit relative to the dashboard if your 1000ft AGL and flying level. The airport will pass a certain point on the windscreen which will be the time to descend.
I’ll practice a bit with an airport with PAPI lights and see if I can figure it out.
If your in a circuit it is simple you just turn at the right time and adjust your descent rate on base to hit around 600’ as you turn from base to final.
Coming straight in is different.
Note that IRL operations you are not going to be coming straight in unless you are a commercial flight, in GA you will want to overfly the airfield check for sheep/kangaroos/moose as well as other traffic without comms such as ultralights on the runway, join the circuit and look out for other traffic.
Always land in to the wind as that will be the active runway, even if you and your aircraft are capable of handling a tailwind you are going to be landing the wrong way compared to the other traffic and might just find something large coming your way .
However let us assume you are doing a VFR straight in approach for some reason - you are generally NOT going to just drop down to 1000’ and then fly straight and level for a bit till you intercept the glideslope and then start your descent. You will basically just intercept the glideslope and try and maintain a stabilised approach from whatever height you happen to be at (providing it is not something like 5000’ above the runway) and the way to judge that is going to be experience combined with the distance from the threshold to the horizon (or where the Horizon would be without the mountains).
One way old school pilots would do it is hold their thumb at full arms length while on a known stabilised approach and make note of the gap from threshold to horizon on their thumb and use that to estimate whether they were on the correct glide slope on later approaches.
When you have the PAPIs right, look at how the runway looks, and then think of the illustration above. Also take note of your vertical speed. If your approach angle is too high, your vertical speed will be too. If it doesn’t look right, go around. After a few thousand landings, you’ll be able to nail it by “feel” every time.
You would have to show me that one
Not sure why that would be. I am cleared straight in, depending on my arrival, at least 3/4 of the time. I usually try to plan my arrival accordingly.
This sounds like a You-tube how to sim video.
The only difference between a circuit final and a straight in final is the 90 degree turn in the middle. Set up your approach as you turn base and you should be able to maintain the profile all the way in. Altitude at the turn to final depends on how far out you are as you turn final.
When doing a straight-in or any other approach, once on final, decide on your landing spot and note it’s position in the windscreen. If that spot is moving up in your field of view you will be short, if it’s moving down you will be long. If it remains in the same position on the windscreen, you will arrive at that spot…regardless of what speed you are going or what airplane you are flying. Works every time!
@willisxdc was trying to tell you.
First of all, not the best idea to land at an airport at night straight in for the first time you’ve ever been there. Better fly upwind, then cross-wind, to set you up on a downwind to base to final landing.
Be that as it may, it actually is a really important skill to be able to land straight in to an unfamiliar airport (see below)… so…At about 2 mi out from the airport (I picture a typical 5000’ runway on the ground and that’s about a mile, so, two runways away), make sure you’re at about 80 knots and at pattern level (1000’ above the runway) and dial in your first notch of flaps, make sure you’re settled in and starting to descend and dial in your second notch of flaps, at this point, you should be about a mile out (1 runway away), and descending at about 500’ minute, at about 800’ to 750’ above the runway, and add your third notch of flaps and reduced to 70 knots. Aim your path for the end of the runway.
As @willisxdc said, if you start to feel like you’re too low, go around and do a normal downwind to base to final landing as you would. If as you cross the threshold and you’re too high to level off and go into your flair, go around and do a normal downwind to base to final landing as you would. Never, ever hesitate to go around if you’re not sure. Unless of course you lost an engine and you’re trying to get into that clearing, in that case, do the best you can to stay out of the trees. (Obviously, this is why this skill is super important)
Point being, stop using the DME. Turn it off and start to learn how to judge distances on your own. Over time you’ll get it and it won’t be an issue.
And I totally disagree with the advice not to do it to an unfamiliar airport. The sim is the perfect place to do this first of all, sort of as, technically, it feels quite different in real life (easier to me, you can feel it, and overcontrolling is sooo easy in the sim since there are no stick forces). Second of all, if you lose an engine, you better have the skill to land without landing aids. Practice, practice, practice. I love doing engine out drills. 
I just started flying again after 20 years, and, of course I didn’t just climb in, I got in with an instructor. And after he’d seen me land a couple of times, he had me go land on a relatively short crosswind runway (3200 ft, not really that short) with no landing aids. First time I “chickened out” and went around. Second time I nailed it. And it felt good.
(P.S. I came up with those distances off the top of my head, I could be off. A good exercise would be to figure out, how far does the plane glide at 80 knots and 500’ ft/min descent? Calculate how many runways you should be away from the threshold when you’re at 80 and 1000’ above the runway.
Did I say I hate DME? 
)
P.P.S. And, it is cool to do, but practice all sorts of landings. There’s absolutely no difference between a straight in landing and a downwind to base to final landing. The best thing to do is get a picture in your head, knowing ahead of time you’re at the right altitude, of what the threshold should look like when you start on final approach. And eventually you’ll be able to replicate this as a matter of course for a straight in landing.
I think you might’ve mistyped there… landing downwind is never a good idea. If you enter the upwind, fly a full circuit and make a normal upwind landing.
I thought I corrected all those. I was typing fast, I meant a normal downwind to base to final landing… Fixed.
True.
I was assuming uncontrolled airfields where coming straight in at night without overflying first could have unexpected consequences.
It was Eddie Rickenbacker who established the pattern approach way back in WWI after several airmen were killed at their own airdrome. In the first war there were not runways at these airfields - they were just that - an open field with hangars and shacks to one side. The planes would just be pulled out by the handlers and set facing into the wind (early pre-dawn it was generally calm) if there was one.
But upon returning these exhausted half frozen and often wounded or shocked pilots would just drop straight in. Many times either directly into or crosswise to departing aircraft, lorries or ambulances on the field (again - no runways) until finally Rickenbacker had enough and ordered all returning flights to orbit the field at low altitude to check for obstacles, check the wind direction, and give the ready pilots and other folks on the ground time to clear out of the way. It’s in his memoirs.
It immediately had an impact and over time the practice was refined and standardized.
You should always ALWAYS orbit the field - or at least fly a downwind to base to final and really LOOK at the field, taxiways and runways - especially at uncontrolled airfields - but even if there Is a tower. Because just like crossing the street, even if your light is green you can still be mowed down in the crosswalk. Ya Gotta Look, It’s what Eddie would have wanted.
I suppose it needs to be said that everything I posted above this line is for GA and regional or uncontrolled airports only.
In a case where the airspace is tightly controlled - you listen to the ATC and do as they tell you.
Keep your nose on the runway threshold and mange your sink rate accordingly.
Also, keep in mind IRL, straight in’s are not typical, especially at uncontrolled fields.
