Learned a lot from the F-18 and nailed the Top Gun 2 Inversion maneuver

I’ve enjoyed learning the systems of things like the 747 and now the A310-300, mostly relying on following the procedures and ILS approaches.

When I tried the F-18 it opened a whole new world. I never really paid attention to the concepts of actual flight so all this I had to figure out on my own since I’ve never been formally taught.

I ended up spending 12 hours flying out of some Himalayan mountain airport at 11,000feet and flying up a canyon to a ridge line south then over the ridge line down another canyon that ended in a ridge that I could pop over, and down further into India.

I think you can see where I’m going with this: I ended up figuring out how to do the Top Gun 2 roll maneuver over the mountain ridge lol.

It was - very very hard at first. Because things didn’t make sense.

Things I learned is that the plane becomes unstable near vertical and low power. That when you roll or invert it’s easy to leave your elevators at the wrong angle and you lose stability and the plane wants to naturally roll.

I learned to stop fighting the reaction of the aircraft, let it do what it wants then give it little adjustments.

I learned that thrust is almost everything. In the beginning I was using the “pitch” (elevators?) to control the flight. I never considered why on autopilot the thrust is constantly up and down.

Well now handling it by hand - I got particularly good at cutting out the engines or engaging afterburners to give me the lift I needed.

The best way I came to think about it is buoyancy. The plane is like a submarine in water. The more water (less thrust) the less bouyant you are and the more you sink.

So I had difficulty getting the nose to react to the pitch I wanted if I had too much or too little thrust. All-in-All it was good fun. When I’m home I can find the Airport code and others can try it too. The mountains there are pretty “steep” so you get good angles to do the maneuver.

It’s still very difficult. The first roll-over became easy because it’s a straight shot into the sky, kill the engines and guide back along the mountain contour inverted.

Oh I also learned to stabilize the aircraft in your current configuration before changing to another. If you perform something inverted. Trim/stabilize inverted then go back to a normal configuration.

That became particularly important when entering the next chute, this big canyon going into India from about 15,000 feet down to 8,000 feet where it hit a large “cliff wall” probably some glacial moraine in real life.

You reconfigure into that canyon and get a few opportunities to swing left and right (roll left to right) which like in the movies (go figure) causes you to halfpipe the canyon walls but more importantly bleeds off all the speed you’re getting from going down from 15,000feet to 8,000feet.

I was running the gauntlet about ~270kn with no thrust. The trick toward the moraine was to go from little thrust to afterburner and to roll inverted again just right when you’re catching nose up on one of the rolls so that you hit the target of a saddle just at the top of the moraine.

Then kill the engines again and you could drop right back into the chute which took you from 8,000 feet down to the Indian plains.

I think the location was here:

But I’ll find it for anyone who wants a route to practice on - it turned out to be a pretty good route to try.

Before I found the route I was practicing what happened when you stalled and how to get out of it. Like a friend once said but now I understand, you pitch down and thrust into the ground.

That’s where I really felt the “buoyancy”. Once you have enough of it you can’t help but fly away from the ground. Then just control your exit from the maneuver. Using that same stall principle just felt natural to go take it to the mountain course.

5 Likes

What you learned in the F-18 is what every (sim) pilot should learn first:
How to fly wit nothing more than a stick, the rudder and the throttle!
And learn to understand how all these work together and affects the 4 forces of flight.
In fact there are much more than these 4, but let’s keep things simple in the beginning.

You’ve taken your first step into a larger world

1 Like

What you learned in the F-18 is what every (sim) pilot should learn first:
How to fly wit nothing more than a stick, the rudder and the throttle!
And learn to understand how all these work together and affects the 4 forces of flight.
In fact there are much more than these 4, but let’s keep things simple in the beginning.

Still working on the rudder. Part of the problem is the rudder is so responsive that I have trouble controlling the aircraft with the keyboard. I really am tempted to get a more simulator type setup.

Well that, and I’m just not mentally coordinated yet to use it well. Just like I don’t usually pitch and roll at the same time but I can.

1 Like

I’ve seen this approach to FS since the first time I bought it for the first time it back in 2000 with a lot of guys.
Cheap joystick, no rudders, fancy for the big airliners.
Take-off, Press AP, manage, 300ft above the destination turn off AP, land (or lets say the truth, hammer it down to the ground). But never “learned” how to fly, how the forces belong together.
Do yourself a favor and have a loot at the Tutorials.
And do the 3 best bushtrips: Balkans, Chile, Nevada.
It will open your eyes.

This can happen to pretty much any airframe whether it’s a fighter jet, a bush plane or an airliner. They call this a stall

This goes for pretty much anything that requires hands on flying… At the risk of sounding all guru-y, I say flying a fighter jet is flying an extension of your body…that travels at mach 1.5…and has bombs.

And someone is going to mention it one way or another but if you decide to take the next step at fighter jets (or anything military), look into DCS. There’s a very well modeled F18 you can try out for free for two weeks and is otherwise high fidelity. MSFS is a ways out from high fidelity fighter jets and imo DCS has effectively cornered that market.

Now do it around Lake Tahoe (Where those scenes in TG2 were filmed)

2 Likes

I live in the Tahoe basin area lol. Love it.

Given my skill level at controls I can’t imagine having to do it in a smaller scale (Himalayas are big; Tahoe…not nearly as “big”).

Regarding DCS do you know about the flight physics? High fidelity systems are cool and all - but if the atmospherics are sub par then I am not sure how I feel about it.

leagues above MSFS. You’ll actually get jet wash flying behind another jet. Autorotate and VRS is decently simulated for the available helicopters. armaments are simulated so that GBU is a physical object with it’s own physics properties or that Sidewinder might lose tracking if the target gets too close to the ground due to ground clutter. And of course if you load that A10 full of cluster bombs, you’re gonna have a hard time taking off with anything more than a half a tank of gas and it’ll probably still struggle to stay aloft. Keep in mind Eagle Dynamics have decades of experience over Asobo so its understandable DCS will have a better flight model.

Some other maybe useful information:

  • Graphics are pretty good and have gotten better.
  • Weather is…not great but acceptable.
  • AI leaves something to be desired but otherwise serviceable. I doubt you’d use it often
  • There is freeware available with some really detailed models (with functioning systems). It is hit and miss otherwise
  • Atmospheric conditions affect flight characteristics. For example: Flying a Huey high up in the Caucuses requires more power as the air is thinner
  • DCS is free to play and comes with two planes: An SU25T (simplified cockpit but same flight model as other planes) and a Trainer P51 (no guns P51 but full fidelity) Flaming Cliffs 3 is 6 planes for $50 but mostly Russian jets (A10A and F15C included with FC3) and only has the high fidelity flight model, cockpits are simplified. If you’re a new player you get to try any module for free for two weeks.
  • Purchase anything via the Eagle Dynamics Website, sales tend to be a little more frequent and you can get rewards points to redeem on products. You can redeem Steam purchases to the ED website, but not vice versa
  • Above all, if you decide to take the plunge into DCS, have patience. It’s got one of the steepest learning curves regardless of what plane you decide to purchase. The benefit is you can certainly get more than your money’s worth learning just one plane.
  • Finally, if you don’t like jumpscares, then keep in mind DCS is a horror game

Please note that MSFS is best for non-military flying but dogfighting and military ops is better on DCS or IL2

Great stuff, thanks. I’ve got a couple questions but don’t want to derail the thread (and it’s not MSFS related) so I’ll message ya.

Heya, congratulations for your achievements!

Being myself a flight simmer since 40 years and formally graduated in aeronautics, I have long forgotten the sensations of the beginnings and I can assure you reading your post has been much refreshing and interesting at the same time.

If I can add a comment to your well thought analogy:
“The best way I came to think about it is buoyancy. The plane is like a submarine in water. The more water (less thrust) the less bouyant you are and the more you sink.”

Actually this true for aerostats (balloons and airships) whose lift is indeed provided by bouyancy as they are filled with lighter-than-air gas (typically with inert helium, in the past with the extremely flammable hydrogen)

For aircraft, the main factor that keeps is flying is its speed in the air.

Aircraft speed is controlled by aircraft attitude and engine thrust.

Two example conditions:
Leveled flight → more thrust applied → more speed → more lift
Climb flight → less speed → less lift → more thrust is needed

Every aircraft of any type has its characteristics reference speeds:
stall speed (with flaps or not)
takeoff speed
cruise speed
max maneuvering speed
never exceed speed

The list is not complete, still these are the ones most important.

By knowing these speed for a certain aircraft, irrespectively if its a big jetliner or a jet fighter or a propeller driven leisure plane, you will be able to jump in the seat, fire up the engine and take the sky with safe and ease (well almost :wink:) by assuring for every phase of the flight your speed will be the right one.

Hope you appreciate these small hints, have great fun with flying!

The one thing I’ll add for the sake of the OP is that I like to say that the things that are unique to military flying are in addition to what you do in civilian flying, not instead of it.

For example, in real life, F/A-18s in the US Navy like what you’re flying here operate mainly out of NAS Lemoore or NAS Oceana (or for CVW-5 the squadrons at MCAS Iwakuni, Japan), with some smaller numbers in places like NAS Fallon, NAS Patuxent River, and NAWS China Lake, and to my understanding none of these places are really modeled in DCS. When assigned to a fleet squadron, you spend several months on deployment on the carrier (and probably get deployed twice in a 3-year tour) but spend most of your time operating in places near your home field and need to know the area around them and fly the departures and approaches into them and various divert fields in the area, as well as getting on and off the low-level routes, weapons ranges, and other special-use airspace you’ll train in regularly. While DCS is definitely better at modeling the tactical systems (though they only have legacy Hornets and not Super Hornets for the time being), to get a full idea of what military flying is about, you still have to be as comfortable flying the Rhino around in FAA-controlled airspace in CONUS (or I guess in Japan), with all the rules and procedures involved, as you would be flying in a combat zone.

If you want a challenge to try to start out with that’s not too far from you, I suggest trying to plan and fly the full Sidewinder low-level (one of the Top Gun challenges is just from the first point to the second point (from Lake Isabella to the Needles)). The Jedi Transition, if you want to use that option, goes through the “Star Wars Canyon” and skips from point C1 to point J (from SIDEWINDER LOW LEVEL SOP REV (4).pdf (af.mil)):