Live Weather Does Not Match

[Deacon8tor]

@UpstateElf898

You do UNDERSTAND the even though a metar shows rain listed that rain might have stopped and that the METAR isn’t reflective of the CURRENT conditions.

The caps seem a bit unnecessary. I think we can all be a bit more civilized than that.

I’m generally fascinated by what seems to be an odd campaign to discredit METARs.

I don’t generally like being a resume guy, but in this case, I think it’s a matter of credibility.

I’ve flown, military, general, and airline aviation for about 35 years now. I’ve read thousands of METARs, TAFs, etc.

And the number of times I’ve come across an ATIS/METAR that was wildly inaccurate, I could probably count on one hand.

Does the weather change over the course of the hour interval? Of course it does. Is this generally captured by the next hourly report (if not changed via a SPECI)? Of course it is. And the more profound the change, the more likely the reported weather is to be changed.

Moreover, as I’ve said, the TAF/ATIS is the legal weather at the field (unless the FAA has issued an Exemption/OPSPEC for another weather source).

The FAA takes that very seriously. Trust me on that one!

But this discussion largely circumscribes the point.

The issue isn’t that the METAR says OVC003 1SM RA and there currently is no rain in the sim.

The issue is that the METAR says the above, and it’s 2000ft and scattered in the sim. Or worse, 1/4 mile in haze or clouds so low that you can’t fly the approach.

And this is not a matter of the weather drifting from the hourly report as a display of how dynamic it is.

It’s a matter of how inaccurately the current sim weather model portrays the actual current weather.

This is not how real world aviation works, and I suspect why simmers lobbied for a more accurate weather depiction.

Now people may not like how Asobo has integrated this. I’m one of them.

But denigrating the accuracy of METARs, the actual weather reports used by actual pilots, is probably not the solution to getting more accurate weather into the sim.

I understand that this is a matter that some folks here are passionate about.

But, in the unlikely event that some dev actually reads these threads, I don’t want it to be unstated that some simmers still want to have in sim weather that at least resembles actual weather.

And, despite that segment becoming something of the “them” in this thread, I don’t think there really needs to be an argument supporting why accurate weather would be a virtue in MSFS.

Now I know that this discussion is going to go on until the release of MSFS 2030, and being the Internet, I will have successfully changed exactly zero people’s minds. But I felt that this discussion was getting a bit lopsided, and at least a little inaccurate. So I thought it important to at least present the other side a bit.

Anyway, I hope that this gets all sorted out a bit and that the devs add the, much requested, toggle so that everyone can have the sim experience that they are looking for.

[Perrry]

@Deacon8tor

I’m generally fascinated by what seems to be an odd campaign to discredit METARs.

I bet many here not discredit METAR as a thing to be used in the real world while flying. Because it’s a report of the dynamic weather that doesn’t need to be updated like a snapshot because a METAR has been updated with different text.

I think many here (including me) discredit it as a thing to create weather with when for us the weather felt much more fluid and realistic before su7.

I also discredit it to disturb the Meteoblue weather. Either we have METAR weather 100% or not at all. Blending it will neither make Meteoblue better or METAR. Thats my opinion. As you have said, option would be good

[UpstateElf898]

The caps are there as highlighting points that emphasize things that have been discussed to the nth degree and when you look across all of the past sim platforms back to FS2004 it’s been the same method and same results. Asobo with MB could/should have been different but we managed to vote it into conforming with the old ways. As I said, anyone using sims for 2 years should know by know the issues and with MSFS we do get rain that can model shower bands and start and stop and change intensities without needing a weather refresh. The roadmap for possible changes to weather has been talked about. Seeing the same posts without letting a month go by when we all know it’s the holiday season and NOTHING is going to change until next year is frustrating. Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is what again?

[UpstateElf898]

I don’t discredit the usage of metars either but one fact is key, everyone has forgotten that even with METAR they still use a blend of MB/METARS, I think everyone just sees the METAR box and says, well that’s what the weather should be. You’re playing with two different data inputs and thinking there’s only one.

[DementedCorn327]

I am also one of many that dislike the actual METAR implementation but as Perrry said, not because we don’t understand how it is used IRL or just discredit it without any reason but because it creates weather bubbles that are totally unrealistic versus what we have known at launch where it was 100% MB weather without those bubbles and hard transitions. We want to have METAR in the sim but based on the data MB is injecting. Mixing real life data with forecast data generates unrealistic weather depiction most of the time.
I understand the need of everyone so having options to choose which source to use would be the best.

[UpstateElf898]

Check out this latest update, guy for real just got rid of VATSIM:

Metar Lookup

If I can get around to a flight today I will test it would and let you know!

[Perrry]

The issue is that we are talking to the users only here. We get zero communication from the devs I would really like to know their plans for weather in the future. Is the plan to implement more things from METAR or other known static sources? Or are they planning to make it more fluid instead? What do the devs want the weather to be or are they only using community feedback. I would like them to think outside the box as they did pre release 2020 I want to praise the devs for the weather we got at release 2020. Were amazing that we had experienced a fluid weather system for the first time in a flight simulator. I want to thank Asobo for that experience as long as it lasted. Only issue now for me is that i want to experience it again.

[SealedVolcano50]

Yes the weather we had before was unbelievable, i never know it could be possible for a game, it was something never seen before and it was way better tgan i expected when i bought this game. Bu then…something happened, something that don’t make sense to me even now. That weather was the crown jewel of the sim…

[Jumbojam2385]

Thank you using the Bug section, using templates provided will greatly help the team reproducing the issue and ease the process of fixing it.

Are you using Developer Mode or made changes in it?

No

Have you disabled/removed all your mods and addons?

Yes, tried with Community folder completely empty

Brief description of the issue:

All the time, I have mist/fog around Rome Fiumicino airport (LIRF), although all the metars related to it and the 2 other roman airports (LIRA and LIRU) report CAVOK.

Provide Screenshot(s)/video(s) of the issue encountered:

Provide coordinates (DevMode > Options > Display position)

LAT 41.867 - LONG 12.207
Provide time & date of the observed Weather issue

Dec 19 at 12 utc, but also at any time

Detailed steps to reproduce the issue encountered:

Create a flight in WORLD MAP, starting from runway 25 at LIRF. Take off, turn right towards north climbing to 3000 ft and go back to LIRF landing on rwy 16R. You will have a quite poor visibility during approach up to around 800-500 ft, although metars report cavok or 9999.

PC specs and/or peripheral set up if relevant:

i9-11900k, 3080 ti, 32 Gb ram

Build Version # when you first started experiencing this issue:

Now 1.29.30.0, but I realized around last August (still SU9?)

For anyone who wants to contribute on this issue, Click on the button below to use this template:

Do you have the same issue if you follow the OP’s steps to reproduce it?

Not applicable

Provide extra information to complete the original description of the issue:

Yesterday (Dec 18) I also realized that the metar at times, without any reason, changes to 15 (I don’t know of which month, maybe December?), at around 8 am.
Lately, I realized about the issue Saturday Dec 17, when, after a few days of rain, the weather turned good and the visibility 10 km or more. In FS, with real weather, ALL the time the weather remains as I have described. For your info, I also tested on my son’s computer, that has MSFS with another license and is no way connected to mine. Exactly same issue…
If relevant, provide additional screenshots/video:

[DementedCorn327]

Just did a quick test at LIRF and right at the airport visibility looks as reported in METAR (>10k) but once you take off you see like fog all around the airport. MB forecast is also reporting visibility >10k in that zone (no clouds).

But one thing I noticed is that ATIS is reporting a visibility of 3 so maybe this is the issue. I don’t know from where that value is coming from. I understand that ATIS source is MB. So it looks like a discrepency between MB page that shows visibility >10 and that “3” also coming from MB.

[Moach6908]

@Deacon8tor

I’m generally fascinated by what seems to be an odd campaign to discredit METARs.

I think there might be some confusion about terms here. Nobody is (at least shouldn’t be) discrediting the idea of METARs. I believe whenever says something that reads like “METARs are Bad”, they really mean “METAR Blending with Real WX in the sim” as the target of their discredit.

Perhaps they’re just abbreviating it, and to a quick reader it might get muddled as if it all were the same thing. I don’t think that was ever the message though. (hope not, at least)

METARs are a valuable tool for flight planning. METAR Injection in the sim, is the Fount of Many Woes we’re all clamoring to have at least made optional.

Ideally it should be fixed to a point where it’s actually any better with it than without (so far, it has been exclusively a downgrade), but most desperately, it must be made optional.

[Jumbojam2385]

Great, thank you! Exactly what happens to me. Indeed the atis is strange, anyway the metar at LIRF is correct, because you have cavok at the airport. What I can’t understand is why that visibility reduction in the surrounding areas, considering that all the metars of nearby airports (LIRA, LIRG, LIRE, LIRG, LIRU) report cavok…

[DementedCorn327]

Also you can activate the weather debug mode and look at the visibility and humidity (that can impact visibility) values.
Again at LIRF, visibility is saying 7450m in the debug window but ATIS is saying 3 (in km I assume), as per Meteoblue data I guess, even if MB map is showing visibility >=10km. METAR is CAVOK so visibility should be >=10km

[Perrry]

And i don’t understand why METAR is needed to be able to plan a flight.

For example, if somebody planned using this METAR with LIPC as arrival before departue.

LIPC 190255Z 28006KT CAVOK 02/01 Q1034 RMK SKC VIS MIN 9999 WIND THR11 28006KT WIND THR29 28004KT BLU

at 0255Z and then on approach the METAR changes to this 2 hours later

LIPC 190455Z 27004KT 0450 R11/0450 FG BKN001 02/00 Q1035 RMK BKN VIS MIN 0450 WIND THR11 27004KT WIND THR29 28004KT RED

Then the flight planning is useless. Can’t land because they planned a VFR flight? And it’s only 1 METAR report in between. Weather has not changed more than 2 times over that period of time?

To me it’s even easier to plan a flight using forecasts. With that i can check the weather in the future. Checking a METAR doesn’t tell anything about the future.

For example if i were to fly this route here in Sweden:

ESSA arlanda - ESGG Landvetter. Takes about an hour to fly.

Arlanda forecast

Visibility 300M
Wind= 180 at 4,6KN
Gusts= 10,2
pressure=1009
Temp =0

ESGG Landvetter 1 hour from now

Visibility 400M
wind= 190 at 6,8KTS
Gusts = 15KTS
pressure 1006
Temp= 2,2

If they integrated those detailed reports in the sim it would not be an issue planning using forecasts right?

[UpstateElf898]

Correct. It is not that METARS are bad in and of themselves, as they clearly have their role and place when flying. But that’s the thing, when you’re flying. I’m pretty sure the way the sim was developed and the way the clouds and internal systems were designed was with using MB in mind. Adding METARS was never fully intended, not at least in the sense of being used to directly influence or be combined with MB. We now have tools that can present and give all of the data outside the sim that METARS were originally sought after to give. A few more weeks of waiting and hopefully something in the mid-January fixes will present something.

[Jumbojam2385]

Anyway, metar, atis or not, the thing that most disturbs me is the difference between FS weather and real life weather. In real life I have 10 km or more everywhere around me, at least in an area of say 30x30 Nm… why should I see that low visibility in the sim?

[Perrry]

Well, can only hope they make the weather behave 100% like real weather and at the same time be 100% accurate to real weather all over the world all the time.

In the meantime they make that happen i would be fine with the weather sytem we had pre su7 that behaved more like weather.

And i bet you would be fine with METAR 100% around airports to have it 100% accurate to those.

But those 2 systems we now know can’t be blended because it creates confusion and makes the weather behave strange.

[TheSevenflyer]

@Perrry

at 0255Z and then on approach the METAR changes to this 2 hours later

@Perrry

Then the flight planning is useless.

This is exactly what happens in real life, and is the main reason why most times, arrivals are not entered in the aircraft nav system until given by ATC.
Obviously pilots are aware of the conditions and what arrival to expect, but that can and does often change enroute.

Also, you can read the TAF (Terminal Area Forecast), it will give you some idea that the METAR may be different during your arrival.

[UpstateElf898]

Yup. Even flights that are 4/8/10+ hours are initially given flight planning packets that only have “guesstimated” values or forecasts. Trying to fly in a sim using absolutes that don’t even exist in the real world. The only thing that you could argue that would be even remotely accurate about flight planning would be the route, but even ATC changes that. I’ve done relatively shorter flights and have configured my arrival and approach and then shortly before landing I had to change it because winds shifted. I’ve even been ready to depart and pushback (using live traffic) and I was set up for one runway and then the airport switched OPS and I had to wait 20 minutes in line while the approach corridor could be used as departure. The first mistake in aviation is thinking everything is absolute or certain. Weather or anything related can flip on a dime.

[Perrry]

@TheSevenflyer

Also, you can read the TAF (Terminal Area Forecast)

But that is also forecasts. Weather that may happen in the future. Is TAF also fantasy weather then that i’ve seen some explain Meteoblue weather? Meteoblue is also forecasts.

I have no issues with METAR weather if i could use it as an optional feature. But i know METAR and forecasts is 2 completely different things. Thats why forecasts not always match METAR. But try make a forecast fit a METAR i would say is impossible. If it were possible we would always have 100% accurate forecasts already. But we all know forecasts is not always 100% accurate because weather is unpredictable/varied. And thats what weather pre su7 felt, unpredictable/varied.

I’ve learned by now that nobody can’t change anyones opinion here. And we should not do that, both METAR and forecasts is valid weather. But some including me wants only forecasted weather because it feels much more natural and organic. But that option we can’t have anymore

I’ve used flight simulators really long time and this were the first time weather actually felt like weather in my opinion when this sim were released. When they added more and more stuff from METAR it were moving away from that feel. For some it may have felt more like weather when they added those things from METAR. And thats good for those users.

Well, i bet Asobo decides whats best for the sim. I really hope to see some improvments for us that liked the weather as it were when it were released 2020 soon though.