MSFS - As a tool for flight training

Discussion Hub General Discussion
1

Interested to hear peoples thoughts and experiences on using the sim as a way to practice procedures and techniques learnt through flight training.

A bit of background about myself, as I don’t want to claim to be an expert in real life flying, far from it. I’ve been obsessed with flying since I was a kid, having grown up in an RAF training area in Scotland. Flight simming experience started out with I think MSFS 5 on my family’s Mac back in the 90s, then Falcon 4.0, FS2004, FSX and then X-plane 11. I had been aiming to start my PPL for years, and I could just never get myself in the financial position to do more than a couple of intro flights, so those experiences were all I had to compare flight sims to. X-Plane was the big jump for me, suddenly that “on-rails” feeling was gone, combined with ActiveSky and the REP C-172 it actually felt like the aircraft was moving through air compared to any sim I had used previously.

Having moved to Canada about 7 years ago I realised that flight training was far cheaper here, and with a good job suddenly my dream of flying seemed possible again. I was ready to start training last summer but obviously covid happened so that got delayed, however MSFS was released!

MSFS felt again different to any sim previous. It has been great to see it develop over the last year and it is in a state now that I personally am enjoying it more than X-Plane, I feel like the simulated air flow is much closer to real life, and after getting a VR headset I also find the VFR flying as close as it gets to reality with a home sim. There are some elements that need more attention, like the transition during landing from flying to ground roll, the P-factor still feels a little off to me, and also some important VFR landmarks still need to be added. Also I can appreciate that for IFR and airlines etc the sim might not be there yet, but I am speaking purely from a VFR GA perspective as that is all I do when flying in the sim.

So back to my original topic. I’m finally in flight school, flying twice a week and I’m around 12hrs into my flight training. The instructors at the school are keen on the benefits of using home simulators which I was happy to hear. I’m basically doing a couple of nights a week in MSFS, repeating my real life lessons in the sim in VR, and using VATSIM to practice my radio calls. I’m using the C-152 because it has the carb heat and is the closest setup to the C-172 I’m using for lessons, at least until someone hopefully releases a 172 with carb heat. Obviously the RPM settings, climb speeds etc are different than I’m using in lessons, but I’m finding the practice in the sim so useful for building muscle memory and drilling in procedures. I can practice stalls, spins and spiral dive recovery and I’ve been surprised to see the aircraft in the sim react very closely to the real thing. I honestly feel using MSFS is helping a lot so far with my training. I have heard using sims can teach bad habits like focusing too much on the instrument panel, but maybe VR reduces that chance as it is not something I have had trouble with.

I’m also not saying that the same benefits can not be said for X-Plane or other sims, but as a complete beginner in the world of flying I just wanted to put it across that I feel MSFS is a capable simulator that is benefitting my learning, and I’m personally very excited to see it develop more in the coming years.

Interested to hear if anyone else is using it for training and how you think it stacks up against other sims for that purpose.

5 Likes
2

Sim definently helps I use it to practice checklists and memory items and to fly navs before I fly them for real, the biggest plus I have found is for nav and VR is also an amazing experience,the photogrammetry and atmosphere can really make you feel like you are there especially in VR. I could never get into P3D for practice but this Sim is much more useful

I find Sim flying is harder than real world flying because of the limitations and lack of actual control feel but VR is amazing the visuals just need to improve, just be careful not to bring any bad habits from the Sim to real life, I think this could be an issue early on not so much when you have a few hundred hours. I once knew somebody who did not like to play atc Sims too much because it confused his phraseology in the real world, good luck with your flying friend

Wayne

1 Like
3

it cannot be a repalcement for real flying, we have no forces.
but for some instrument gettiing used to, maybe helpful.
there is no way you get the same feeling flying behind a screen than with real.
also quite a few weather siustuations are not so well modelled right now, including how
the aircraft reacts on the weather.

1 Like
4

Systems learning and familiarization is about as far as I’d go because even while utilizing systems while in an aircraft is all together a different experience based off of from what one may be experiencing at the time. You don’t get the same experience sitting in your desk chair as you would in an aircraft. You could practice radio communication in the sim and gain some form of experience or some form of familiarization with protocols that could be good in the sim and in actual aviation where they might become somewhat instinctual to do, though at the same time where they could become instinctual in MSFS might be very bad instinct while in the air or on the ground depending on the circumstances.

This can be said even as for an FAA approved flight simulator device of which MSFS, FS10, FS9 I have yet to be seen being used. However, with software like X-plane and Prepar3D you can get FAA certifications on though your hardware also has to meet regulations as per FAA requirements.

I would always proceed with caution and be wary to our own perception’s that we may acquire while using MSFS vs Piloting an Aircraft. Just when one concludes or (thinks) that’s how it is in a real aircraft while playing MSFS can perhaps pinch themselves. :grin:

1 Like
5

I know this raises hackles with flight instructors but there have been a few sim pilots now who have bought time with a flight instructor and done parked to parked flights as the only person controlling the aircraft and done it successfully.

There was also that ramp worker at Seattle that stole a Q400 and did aerobatics while being shadowed by fighter jets who were to shoot him down if he headed back to the city. He eventually augered in but a very controlled and amazing flight. I believe his “training” was all flight sim as well.

And the most infamous example of all is the 9/11 hijackers. They learned their routes in Microsoft Flight Simulator and a FSX Gold (IIRC) box (edit - was FS2000 - FSX Gold wasn’t out yet) was even found in one of their cars left at the airport. Some had taken some real flight training but very limited. Instructors in Oklahoma even turned them in to the FBI as suspicious because they clearly stated they didn’t care about takeoffs or landings. They just wanted to learn how to maneuver a flying plane.

From my own experience, I’ve been in a number of aircraft over the years and been allowed the controls in many of them. I was just maneuvering and flying, but level 360s, coordinated turns, holding altitude, etc, (the basics) were all easy and actually were easier than in the sims.

This last one was a military sim, but I got the chance to fly a T-37 sim at a USAF training base with an IP sitting right seat. They set me up off runway axis so I had to fly a partial pattern but I greased the landing and later heard that the instructors were surprised when someone I was with told them at the time that all I had to then was PC flight sim time. They thought I was an experienced pilot with jet time.

If you go check digitalthemepark.com, the guy that runs that runs a business setting up flight schools (military and civilian) with VR, PC-based, flight sims and controls. Flight schools and the military are using sims more and more. There’s a big shortage of pilots looming and the military at least sees PC-based flight sims as a training and recruiting tool for young pilots.

Definitely an excellent tool for training as long as you watch the bad habits.

3 Likes
6

Back when I was preparing for my cross country solo I used flight simulator (98 I think) to practice radio navigation as I knew I would possibly need them while flying VFR over terrain with limited landmarks. Sure enough I had to use my Nav radio in real life. It’s way cheaper to practice navigation in a sim versus burning real fuel when you’re just learning something like use of VORs. FS2020 visuals are good enough to practice VFR flying and radio navigation. But the sim is missing the true “seat of your pants” feel…that’s where the real flying is king…happy flying!

4 Likes
7

Hello.

Yes, actually I’m practising flying by playing this sim.
I flying airbus a320neo. I always make the flight from start to finish, 100% realistic flights and procedures.

Like you, flying is my passion since I was 6. ( now I’m 15). I wanted to become an airline pilot so bad. However because of COVID, I was on remote learning. Long hours spent looking at computer, doing my work and attended online classes for 3 months. Unfortunately, this resulted problems with vision, and I need to wear glasses to see e.g letters in distance. This ruined my dream of becoming a pilot, and that really hurt, if you know what I mean. However I don’t give up and I founded something else that I want do in future. But flying will always be my passion.

I love playing this sim, because this is the thing, that let me to imagine that I’m a real airline pilot.

4 Likes
8

Hey WelcomeString, thanks for the reply. Sorry to hear of your vision problems, it must have been an especially difficult past year for anyone your age having to do remote learning.

I don’t know the extent of your vision problems but there are many pilots flying today who have to correct their vision with glasses, there was even a story posted on the flightsimulator.com website about a guy who had lost an eye and got approval to fly. Always worth speaking to a medical professional in the aviation field to find out if you could fly.

All the best

9

Thanks for the replies, good to hear others are using the sim for training. I would 100% agree that from a training perspective it is not a replacement for hands on flying, there are too many forces and feelings that you don’t get with a sim. I’m remaining humble and looking to always acknowledge my mistakes, and have asked my instructor to point out any bad habits they might notice. Part of the reason I’m asking for other peoples perspectives is just to be more aware of what bad habits can be picked up, and see what everyone’s views are as to the pros and cons of using a sim to compliment training.

10

Congratulations on starting your PPL training!

IRL most C152 and C172 are not authorized for spins or spiral dives. The airframe cannot takes the stress. Try setting all the ASSITS to HARD to replicate real world flying as close as possible.

The biggest problem with using MSFS for flight training is its inability to simulate real movement and G forces. Compare stalls in real life with MSFS or any other simulator. The attitude of the aircraft pushing your back into your seat, the feeling in your stomach as the stall is entered and the plane shudders and shakes before falling out of the sky. Or for those so inclined, the G forces encountered during aerobatics. Flying is a whole body experience!

I confess that when I went through PPL training, I used whatever the flight simulator was current at the time. I used it mostly for navigation training (before GPS), some night flying, and improving my cross-country skills.

1 Like
11

I’ll second that, even though he might still be too young for eye surgery I know two people that officially now have better than twenty twenty. Whether they would be allowed to fly I don’t know but it’s a hell of an argument.

1 Like
12

Thanks!

Yeah I realise looking again at what I wrote there saying that “I can practice stalls, spins and spiral dives” gives the impression that I am genuinely using the sim as my practice for these maneuvers, which is not the case. I guess what I was meaning is that I was surprised using the sim after having done those things in real life with an instructor in an approved utility category aircraft, that the plane in the sim responds as it should, and that although lacking any forces or feelings, the correct movements on the controls that you use in reality breaks the stall, spin or spiral dive as it should.

13

I’m not sure where you heard that, but it’s not possible. The first pre-release look that the public had for FSX was the AVSIM convention in Washington DC in September 2006 . I was able to get my hands on it for a few minutes there. The latest version that was out just prior to that attack was FS2000, released on October 21, 1999. FS2002 came out just short of two years later on October 19, 2001. In fact, there was a last minute change to that version, because MS decided to remove the Twin Towers from the New York Skyline.

1 Like
14

For myself it is good for practicing muscle memory. I have all my controls set up to where they are IRL. For example if I reach for the flap control it is the same location it would be IRL.Same for switches, trim wheel, throttle, carb heat, mixture, transponder, radio/nav controls. So when I reach for the control I do not have to look at it.

2 Likes
15

I think it’s all already been said… but, when I was learning in 1995, I used FS95 to help practice. Back then it wasn’t close to as nice as this version is, but it was still very valuable to not only practice instrument reading and cockpit procedures, but, also to practice flight procedures (to a degree).

As has been mentioned, flying in the sim is a lot different than real flying, for many reasons, and the lack of forces makes it even worse, but, I still found practicing things like power on and power off stalls, so I could get each task committed to “muscle memory”, helpful. Landing was very different back then, so I stayed away from that at the time.

I just got back into the cockpit again after nearly 20 years away, and this time I found MSFS even more helpful, and landings better, too. I’d been planning all year to get back in the cockpit, but, MSFS made it so I couldn’t bear to wait any longer. I find landing much closer to real in MSFS (and even FSX), as long as crosswinds aren’t involved. That is still totally borked, so, don’t practice that in the sim. It might also be that I’m much more seasoned at landing than I was as student pilot as well, but, I think it really does feel close bar the lack of forces. Certainly, the visual clues are awesome now.

And I will say, all the talk of “floaty” planes has bothered me from day one. In comparison to the planes I’ve flown for real and the planes I’ve flown in the sim, landing distance and procedure is extremely similar (C152, C172, Arrow), and the a few of the ones I haven’t flown feel about right to me (well, the Savage Cub feels like it has wayyyy more power than it should :wink: ). It’s all about getting the speed and vertical speed on the numbers.

1 Like
16

This is something that I am really keen to setup myself and a good point when considering building muscle memory.

The problem I am having in creating a similar setup is finding a good Vernier throttle control, Saitek used to make one but it is impossible to find now, VirtualFly make a very expensive one, and then there is a guy selling 3D printed ones which I am considering.

17

Yes landing in the old sims was definitely not as close of an approximation as todays sims achieve! That is cool to hear of you getting back in the cockpit after 20 years, well done! I can imagine using the sim helps to get you back into the thought processes of flying after a long time away from it.

I have definitely found that it is as easy in real life to float along the runway if you get it wrong as it is in the sim, like you say it is all about getting your speed and correct approach setup and then the landing should be easy… should be :slightly_smiling_face:

1 Like
19

I used the sim to fly my student XC’s before I ever did them IRL. I def think it helped me be familiar with the areas, landmarks, ect. For example I was able to spot a lake I was using for visual navigation just as it looked in sim matched real life. Helped me feel a bit more comfortable when going for that student solo XC. I’ve since earned my license and used it to practice navigating to new airports before I fly the route.

4 Likes
20

You are correct. I don’t remember the specific version but turns out it was likely Flight Simulator 2000. I remember the photo specifically because it was a huge oh ■■■■ moment. I assume what you mean as not possible was the version but I did say IIRC. It was from the driver side looking at the back seat floorboard and the box was right there. They used some conventional flight training but also Flight Simulator to plan the actual attacks. Stores pulled Flight Simulator from shelves and Microsoft’s next version had no World Trade Center.

“Within days of last week’s terrorist attacks in New York City and Washington, D.C., Microsoft was at the center of a controversy because of reports that the terrorists used its popular Flight Simulator game to help plan the attacks. Recent versions of Microsoft Flight Simulator include realistic city landmarks, including the World Trade Center in New York, and sensationalistic news reports have included footage of the software simulating the pilot’s view of one of last week’s doomed flights.”

This stuff is getting hard to find now but that quote was from Microsoft Flight Simulator in Terrorist Controversy | ITPro Today: IT News, How-Tos, Trends, Case Studies, Career Tips, More

22

Try Desktop Aviator
And Flight Sim Stuff