In training, I do a pretty amazing job with landing my plane. I’m able to get my speed under control, the plane responds well when I drop throttle to zero, I’m trimmed, and it works. I’m OK with flaps and landing gear - I think I have a good feel for speed control.
When I’m flying some landing challenges or doing free flights with other planes, the simulator behaves differently when I bring the throttle to zero. It’s as though the backside of the plane immediately drops to the ground with the nose facing up, and everything is unstable. The plane is not gliding in as I expect; it seems shocked by a drop in throttle.
I’m theorizing that I’m supposed to also drop the plane’s propeller RPMs - but I’m not sure.
Is there something I’m supposed to be doing during landing to prevent the plane tail from dropping when I lower the throttle?
Leave the prop on full. There is no way the physics are different between a challenge and free flight so there is something you’re not seeing.
It sounds like your letting your airspeed get too low while too high for the aircraft weight. The heavier you are the higher the stall speed. How to calculate it will be documented in a PoH.
Another option is weather. Maybe it is gusty and you haven’t added half the gust speed to your approach speed?
For power it can depend on the plane. In my little two seaters, I was taught to come in with zero power. But I’ve read that with larger planes you want to have a bit of throttle so it isn’t such a dive and the control surfaces don’t lose so much authority.
For the first part :
My main theory here would be : payload. Are you sure the plane is as loaded in Freeflight / Training as in Challenges ? That could explain that it does lean backward in challenge
Also, is there any autopilot or assist activated, you think ? What you describe here is a plane trying to keep its trajectory pitch despite losing speed (or lift to be exact). Who’s trying to keep the traj.'s pitch is the mystery
For the side question :
You’re not supposed to change the RPM, also (the blue lever). It should be “full on” (maximum RPM) for the landing. The red one (mixture) should be at the maximum too if you’re landing at sea level (and less if you’re landing very in a very high altitude where having the mixture full rich would probably turn your engine off, but nothing you should worry about if you land on a field under 3000ft).
The landing challenge I’m doing is the Toronto landing (in Famous, last option). If you haven’t done it yet, you have to overshoot the runway, turn around, and land.
To replicate my result, come in with flaps and gear down. Landing speed could be 100 knots or so - a little higher or lower. It doesn’t really matter in my case for that dipping plane result.
Give it a try. The autopilot may have had something to do with it. I also found that when landing, I had to reduce my throttle to near minimum (which does cause the nose-up behavior), stabilize, then on landing, I can reduce what remains of the throttle.
See what behavior is required at your end. Thanks in advance!
TL;DR; : I think the trim is the issue. But the “default cockpit view” may also.
I gave it a try. It was fun. Gotta to say it early : thanks for letting me know what was the right route. This was the first ever time of my life I did a “challenge” in MSFS, and I found absolutely no way to have a breifing about what to do
TL;DR; : the trim might be the issue
So : I made it. First time, I tried it “my way”.
Starting the challenge
disconnect AP / Yaw Damper / Flight Director
get the plane at +/-100kt
set the trim
full flaps, gear out
land
The plane behaved correctly regarding my experience of the TBM.
Then I made a second try, to see how your experience can be reproduced. So I did nothing else than fly the plane that they gave me.
But I discovered that the elevator trim is really leaning to the “up” position. Like a lot. I did not feel it on the first test, but to reset this trim to somewhere near the “neutral position” took me a lot of time.
Flying the bird with this trim configuration required me a lot of effort to get the plane flight with an angle of attack of 3-5°, I was constantly pushing on the stick.
Third try, I changed nothing but the trim (I left the YD / FD, just for the test). It went way better.
Side Note : landing position (view in the simulator)
One thing is that the default position of the simulator for the TBM is very “deep in the seat”. You barely see anything above the cockpit. And even when flying flat, you’re looking at the sky I love the bird, but it would be unflyable without a bit of configuration.
Namely : I made a custom “Landing Pilot View”, up over the board.
Here is the keyvoard binding I set :
Next Pilot Position : Page UP
Previous Pilot Position : Page DOWN
Landing Pilot View Save : CTRL + SHIFT + PAGE UP
IFR Pilot View Save : CTRL + SHIFT + PAGE DOWN
Then,
I move inside the cockpit
whith arrow keys, scrool for zoom and freelook for the right angle
hit CTRL+SHIFT+PAGE UP when I have my landing view
When I’m in the default position
“Page Up” will put my view in a landing position
“Page Up” twice will put me in the copilot seat
“Page Down” zoom on instrument (which I can change also, same way that for the “landing view”)
Note : the “reset view” doesn’t get you back to the default view, you have to page-up/page-down (my bindings) to select the “default position” yuou want.
If I don’t do that, I think I just can’t land a TBM
First my scenario and a few questions to go with it.
I’m running a VR setup, but I occasionally play on my projector as needed. I’m using a HOTAS, so my trim is handled by a pinky scroll-wheel.
When flying, I usually trim by eye so that I’m flying straight without touching the stick. If I reduce or increase speed, I need to re-trim because the speed dynamics are a little different.
During landing, should I be trimmed according to my plane being straight without touching the stick? OR, should I somehow find a neutral trim regardless how fast my plane is going or where its nose is pointed with a dead stick?
Another question. I’m using a Thrustmaster TWCS Throttle. Am I supposed to bleed off the thrust as I lose altitude to avoid the nose-up bump? OR, if things are working properly, should I be able to drop the last quarter of throttle without a sudden change in my plane’s angle?
For the landing with the TBM, here is what I aim for : at the speed of 70-90kt, the plane is descending at a rate between 200-400fpm, with a pitch of 0-+5° without touching the stick.
It requires playing with the power lever and the trim.
If you fall too fast (500+ fpm), you’ll increase the pitch up to 5° to flatten your trajectory, and this will require a bit more power to keep the indicated airspeed.
If you don’t fall enough (flat trajectory, 0fpm), then you’ll remove some power, the pitch will decrease, and you’ll have to put back the power so speed doesn’t increase more (because of the reduction), but just a few because with flat or negative pitch, your plane will accelerate (because of gravity).
Working with ranges (70-90kt) rather than fix numbers (75kt / -300fpm descent rate) is okay. In real life, you would (apologies for the words) “pilot with your butt”, as you’d feel what is the correct combination of position, speed and rate of your plane to be comfortable for you and your passengers (if it’s okay for human, it’s okay for the machine, kind of). But there’s nothing like this in the sim
Generally speaking, I never go “idle” on the throttle before definitely landing, especially on a turboprop like the TBM, as “respooling” the engine can take a long time. The TBM is a tricycle-geared plane, by opposition to “conventional” (with a small gear on the tail). The conventionnal trains are demanding : you aim to touch all three landing gears at the same time on the ground. Tricycle gears, like the TBM, are a bit easier : you aim to touch with the rear two wheels, and the front wheels touches after.
That being said : when you commit for landing, as you’re a few hundred feet above the terrain, seconds before landing : power should not change much, you must remain in a stable attitude and speed. Changes of power are acceptable (because required) to keep that stable state you’re in. But you never increase, nor decrease the speed, you keep it constant. If you have to adjust too much, then you’re not stable, the decision of a go-around could be taken.
As you’re landing, when the rear wheels are touching the ground, you make the big decision to either continue your landing, or to go around. At this moment, you’ll go full power (go-around) or no-power (landing). At this time, your pitch (5° or so) means that the rear gears are on the ground, the front gear is still flying.
By the books (and physic theory), as you decrease the power, the plane will gently lower its nose. You should, then, neverpush the stick, but only pull; for example, if you see that the nose is descending too fast and you fear for your front gear, then pull gently on the stick to reduce the speed at which the wheel will touch the ground.
Last but not least, there’s also the ground effect. I’m going to make this very simple : when your plane is just over the ground (at a height less than your wingspan), the plane suddenly starts to fly very well. It will even prevent your plane from landing. You need to decrease you veritcal speed to get it back in the negative range (descending and landing). So you remove some power. Maybe not all the power. But if you go all power-off, it’s ok, your plane will descend to the runway; it will make your go-around longer, because you will have to bring back power to the propeller. Worst case scenario, you’ll make a fall from 10 or 20 feets or so.
The more experienced you become, the more you’ll avoid this drop, keep your whole ability to go-around, and still land sooner than “after the runway”.
Okay, this is a lot of theory. In practice : you may reduce your power to zero right before the touching of the rear wheels. Winds (and ground effect) will tamper with your plane attitude just before the landing, so you’ll have to adapt a lot.
Examples :
You’re landing with winds coming from the front; increase power, add some knots to your speed, like +5kt, just in case the wind suddenly disappear before the landing, so that your plane don’t drop off in stall;
You have no choice but to land (because of threes at the end of the runway). There’s no “go-around” possible (it would have happens way before). You don’t mind “compromising the go-around”, and can act differently on your power settings.
And many, many, many other situations where books does not apply without a bit of magic from the pilot you are
Summary : have a stable trajectory the sooner the better, 70-90kt, -200 / -400 ft/mn, then work on centering your plane on the runway; when passing the threshold, monitor the vertical speed, it will require your to drop some power. When you touch the ground (or so), drop the power, guide ytour nose wheel by pulling the stick. Repeat this, 20 times. You’ll see progress way before that. In clear conditions, you’ll even reach perfection before that
Hope it helps !
K.
PS : I’m not a real pilot, and by any means, these advices are only applicatble to simulation. MSFS is great but it has it’s very own physics, and my advices are made for this physics calculation. Not the real ones
So the good news is my problem really was the trim. I did some testing last night, and when I zeroed my trim before landing, I lost most if not all of that sudden instability when I reduced the throttle.
I’m no landing expert (heck, I wouldn’t fly with me!), but I’ve been able to complete most of the landing challenges with at least hundreds of thousands of points. Not great, but not enough to wreck my car insurance.
Onward and upward! Or is it downward? Thanks again!
I love the bird, but it would be unflyable without a bit of configuration.