Nvidia DLSS support

My bad. I meant CPU bound. That was a typo on the final sentence. Going back to fix it.

Unless you’re running a top tier CPU and GPU combination at 4+K Ultra, you’re placing your wishes at the wrong place, because DLSS won’t help alleviate CPU bottleneck the majority of users are experiencing. My 2080 is rarely more than 50% used as it is without DLSS. The only
other people seeing GPU bottleneck on lower tier system is people with 2-3 generation old GPUs that DLSS isn’t supported on anyway. And DLSS on RTX2000 series cards isn’t even that great looking. DLSS 2.0 on RTX3000 series though. Now that’s something.

What the sim needs is better CPU optimization. That doesn’t require fancy pie in the sky tech to make happen.

Or we need to upgrade to current generation CPUs so we aren’t CPU bound and can use our current GPUs (assuming RTX2000 or better) to their full potential.

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DLSS will even be more prevalent in the near future in many games, especially in VR, now that DLSS 2.1 (VR) is now a standard plugin in Unreal Engine 4:

Despite FS2020 is an Xbox game (AMD), I can’t see why they couldn’t drop support for DLSS 2.1 for NVidia simmers.

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Let’s hope so!

As a reminder, DLSS doesn’t improve performance – it improves visual quality of upscaling when you’re using render scaling to improve performance.

You can do render scaling today, and see how much it will improve your performance at 50% or 70% of native resolution.

If you’re like me, you’ll find that it does improve performance somewhat, but not as dramatically as you would hope because the simulation often remains limited by the main thread on the CPU.

You may find that the visual quality of the existing scaling isn’t good enough for you to make the trade-off for performance, and that is the use case for DLSS: to improve the scaling quality so more people feel comfortable using a lower render scaling value.

Personally I find 70% looks fine on a 4K screen with the current scaling, and sometimes I’ll even run it down to 50% to balance between resolution and the additional CPU and GPU costs of switching between High-End and Ultra.

I would enjoy DLSS being an additional option to sharpen up the scaling, but I don’t believe it would dramatically change my experience. In particular, if lowering the render scaling doesn’t improve your performance now, adding DLSS later will make no difference.

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It might be the case and it might be highly dependent on how adding DLSS fits into the general renderer architecture. However, you’re also making an assumption here, which is scaling with DLSS or scaling with the CAS Shader (what’s in use right now) is in any case taking the same amount of resources.

In effect, when using DLSS you’re actually using dedicated silicon (transistors) which are doing nothing otherwise, whereas when using the CAS Shader, you’re using the same CU you’re using for rendering.

DLSS is not just “scaling” like the CAS Shader, it is “creating” new pixels which didn’t exist before so that it looks like it was natively rendered at a higher resolution and this is done with dedicated silicon which is not contributing to the rest of the rendering. You’re really adding up both visuals and performance in using DLSS.

Now I agree with you TAA70 in 4K is already really good looking, but in VR it is catastrophic with EFIS because FS2020 is rendering EFIS based on the game render resolution (in your example 70% of 4K) not the post-processing resolution (in your example 100% of 4K) and this shows a lot:

[BUG/FEATURE] EFIS Screens Problems and Solutions for higher legibility

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However, you’re also making an assumption here, which is scaling with DLSS or scaling with the CAS Shader (what’s in use right now) is in any case taking the same amount of resources.

In effect, when using DLSS you’re actually using dedicated silicon (transistors) which are doing nothing otherwise, whereas when using the CAS Shader, you’re using the same CU you’re using for rendering.

True! It’s possible that DLSS will actually be slightly faster than letting the TAA antialiasing do the scale-up because it’s using dedicated silicon and could potentially proceed in parallel with rendering of the next frame or such…

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Sorry for late reply but just browsing random threads on perf…

Wondered why you think this?

DLSS is implemented in a decent handful of (major) titles that are also out on Xbox. Minecraft being a major example (that is also a Microsoft title). Fortnite, Cyberpunk, COD, Battlefield…

I get that it might not be a priority for them if both platforms can’t benefit but I don’t think you can say never ever?

Also in a slightly different vein there’s also DirectML which admittedly I just learnt about but it looks promising… Microsoft Eying DirectML as DLSS alternative on Xbox (guru3d.com) // Microsoft’s DirectML is the next-generation game-changer that nobody’s talking about | OC3D News (overclock3d.net)

Except the article is saying the same as I’ve written above:

Especially DLSS v2.0 offers significant performance improvements. NVIDIA however is utilized dedicated hardware or DLSS through the Tensor cores, whereas AMD would need to run it over the compute engine.

In this case, the actual CAS Shader does the job as well and probably in taking less resources than DirectML.

The value proposition to me of DLSS is not just rendering as-if 4K from a 1K image, it is doing so with silicon which does nothing otherwise. In other words, you get not only higher res picture with lower GPU use (1K render instead of 4K), but you also therefore free GPU CU which you can use to enhance the rendering (more pixel Shader effects per pixel).

Now honestly it is really possible NVidia drivers implement the DirectML API via their existing DLSS technology in which case it would be indeed a huge win.

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DLSS 2.0 is huge. Pretty much free performance if left in quality settings, it’d help MSFS SO MUCH!

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Gotcha. Overlooked that one! Apologies.

It would! Let’s see what happens…

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Sorry, but this is cross platform development in a nutshell. I’ve cited numerous times how both Microsoft, and Sony put pressure on Ubisoft to ensure that the PC version of Watch Dogs did not upstage the console versions. They wanted parity across platforms, and because they could not bring the console version up, they brought the PC version down. The vertical slice they gave at E3, and elsewhere looked far superior to what was available at release. Then someone discovered the things they had intentionally gimped were left behind, and just needed to be switched back on.

You may remember during one of the Q&A’s that they said themselves that the intention was to ensure there was a unifying experience, my words, across the two platforms. Sadly, the PC platform will almost certainly suffer because of that directive from on high.

It pains me to see an otherwise great sim being slipped into a console shaped straight jacket, inch by inch.

‘Unifying experience’ doesn’t necessarily mean that perf enhancing features can’t be implemented surely?

Like I said in my previous post, when they took on Minecraft they’ve been ‘unifying’ that, yet that was still one of the first titles to get DLSS and ray tracing support…

Yes I fully realize that frequently developing for console can hamper development but surely it’s probably better to draw comparisons to how MS are approaching thier own IP’s rather than comparing to Ubisoft who have basically always been developing for console first.

All we’re doing is speculating at the moment. We don’t really know what their plans are because nobody has ever taken a sim to console before.

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I’ve not come across a single multi-platform title that has not been affected “negatively” on the PC side. I put that in quotes, as it is not always objective. Some of the tell tale signs we already see, such as the interface size, enforce negative mouse acceleration which works great if you are using a console controller but is a pain for a mouse user.

UI design, and primary control issues are the big ones for me. Beyond that you start getting in to the territory of your target demographic. Landing challenges, and achievements for example, would not have been things high up on my list of things to implement in a new PC next-gen simulator. Some may care, I couldn’t really care less.

As you say, we are speculating, and time will tell as we get closer to the XBox release announcement, and the continued progress of the sim leading up to that point.

I believe Battlefield titles are offering much more on PC, but at least with these, EA and DICE are using RT and DLSS to make the experience better for Nvidia users specifically. :slight_smile:

This title is most likely using DLSS because of RT first and foremost, otherwise perf would be abysmal and the image noisy. In this case, DLSS is implied, not chosen, otherwise they could also offer DLSS only mode (no RT) to game on 244Hz monitors on lower end machines for example, and I don’t believe there is a DLSS only mode.

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Here is fresh news about DLSS and Unreal Engine 4:

In ml based up scaling the details a filled in when motion stops.

Also we don’t read numbers on analog clocks after we become familiar with the location of the fixed numbers

Also dlss would help without rt.

Night flying near cities, higher res at higher frame rates

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I’ve seen the positive effects on pc games.

For a while I was wondering if PCs were being abandoned because low sales and piracy.

Now with the unified dev platforms, studios like project red, can fund large projects over long periods by releases on consoles.

The truth is in the numbers. Console gamers out number pc gamers. If a studio ignores the gamers, they are leaving money on the table.

DLSS 1.0 did that for every frame, but DLSS 2.0 employs standard sub-pixel jitter like most TAA solutions. There is a rare bug in Cyberpunk 2077 with DLSS enabled where the anti-aliasing component stops working, and it reveals the jitter pattern on the aliased image.

This means that even with no motion, the full upscaled image should remain quite accurate compared to the ground truth, meanwhile DLSS 1.0 used to hallucinate in some circumstances. FFXSR will also probably use a similar, temporal approach.