Overspeed at different altitudes (a320n FBW)

Hello, I am a little confused about the different air speeds of overspeed at different altitudes. I am pretty sure that somewhere I got a definition of something wrong and I would be happy if someone would correct me

I mainly fly Airbus A320 Neo

So I am aware that at 35 000 feet 280 knots is quite fast relative to earth and that this
is bigger percentage of the speed of sound up there because the speed of soundwaves is lower in lower density materials.

So as I understand it, the overspeed is when the aircraft goes too fast and creates too much aerodynamic resistance/drag. And the drag is basically generated by the aircraft going forward, hitting the air molecules and absorbing the energy due to the mass of the atoms. So the more molecules you hit, the higher the drag and the higher the forces working on the plane

The airspeed is indicated by the air going through the pitot tube, so as the air gets thinner up in the fl350 we see lower speed than we are actually flying relative to earth

What I don’t understand, why is the overspeed limit lower on the higher altitudes? On FL350 you can’t go above ~280knots in a A320 neo and on low altitudes you can easily go to approximately 340 knots. Since the airspeed indicates how much air particles we hit, why does this speed change? We should hit the same amount of air particles at 350knots airspeed no matter at what altitude we are.

Why is the drag at FL350 and air speed of 280kts as high as the drag at air speed of 340kts on low altitude?
We still hit less air particles at 280kts high altitude so the drag should be lower.

I tried to come up with some explanation by myself and the only thing I can think of is the actual speed of the aircraft relative to the air atoms. Since the atoms are hitting the surfaces of our plane at higher relative speed they could transfer more energy to the surface. So we hit less air atoms but we get the same amount of force working on our plane because of the higher relative speed. Also the low temperatures could have an impact, but I don’t really can see this theory actually work

I don’t know if what I wrote is understandable, I hope so and thanks for help :stuck_out_tongue:

I am not too sure, if I understand your issue but I think the problem here is, that you are talking about IAS. IAS is your indicated airspeed, the speed you are actually flying is TAS (true air speed). Your TAS is higher then your IAS on this altitudes.

So, if you would fly faster, you would exceed the capabilities of the aircraft structure and maybe risk a high speed stall or any other damage.

This is just my idea, not sure if I am right with this and if I am understanding your issue correctly.

I think @PZL104 and @anon50268670 can tell you the exact reason!

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@KarmaWhiskas Welcome to the forums :slight_smile: Interesting question.
That’s due to the fact airflow/aerodynamics behavior starts to change at high Mach numbers and Mach becomes the limiting factor.
If you keep a constant IAS during climb, Mach number increases.
On the A320 the limits are 350kias and M0.82.
If you climb at 350kias, the crossover altitude where Mach becomes limiting is 25500ft.
Climing at 300kias this altitude increases to 31800ft.

@anon50268670 is the guy for the much more detailed explanation :wink:

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Sound travels much more slowly in cold air, and it’s VERY cold seven miles above the Earth. For any given true airspeed, your Mach number will increase as a percentage of the declining speed of sound. This is why you see the barber pole dropping as you get higher. The colder it gets outside, the lower it gets.

The max Mach # for any given aircraft is related to Compressibility. As the wing cut through the air, the layer traveling over the top surface is moving faster then the rest. It’s therefore subject to actually reaching trans-sonic speeds and creating small shock waves that cause the air to separate from the wing’s surface before it can reach the control surfaces, when renders them useless. If I’m not mistaken, this was first observed on the P-38 lightning. Later variants of that type introduced dive brakes on the underside of the wing (they would have been useless on the top) to prevent control loss due to excessive speed in dives.

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Welcome to the forum! We had the same discussion some time ago in another thread. It seems you have a good understanding regarding TAS versus CAS. Your question goes a little deeper as your observation is about Vmo (maximum operating speed in kts) versus Mmo (maximum operating speed in Mach). I added TAS → Mach relationship to the already long explanation about speeds, I hope its not too much, guess you can skip right to the end if IAS → CAS → TAS is clear already:

Types of Airspeed

To start there are different airspeeds:

  • Indicated Airspeed (IAS) is the airspeed measured by the airspeed “sensor” (called pitot probe).
  • Calibrated Airspeed (CAS) is the IAS corrected for errors in measurement and instrument errors, on modern aircraft this is the airspeed displayed on the speed tape.
  • True Airspeed (TAS) is the CAS corrected for air density.
  • Groundspeed (GS) is the TAS corrected for wind and is the speed the aircraft is actually travelling over the ground.

Then we didn’t take into account Equivalent Airspeed (CAS corrected for compressibility when flying at higher MACH numbers) and MACH, but that is for another day maybe…

IAS → CAS

IAS to CAS is generally only a few knots, not very significant. Modern aircraft with Air Data Computers automatically correct for this and CAS is displayed on the speed tape. On small GA aircraft you’ll need to correct for position and instrument errors according to tables published in the aircraft POH.

CAS → TAS

Density has much bigger effect on airspeed, the airspeed indicator is calibrated according International Standard Atmosphere (ISA), therefore: CAS = TAS only at sea level and in standard atmosphere. In other words, whenever the air density is different than the air density on a “standard day” at sea level the TAS differs from the CAS. The density of the air is depending on:

  • Air pressure
  • Air temperature
  • Humidity

In Mickey Mouse language: If air density decreases, an aircraft needs to fly faster (true airspeed) to encounter the same amount of air molecules per time frame (indicated airspeed) in order to produce the same amount of lift on the wings. Commercial aircraft flying at FL300 and higher therefore have a considerably higher true airspeed compared to the speed displayed ont the speed tape. By the way True Airspeed, Ground speed and MACH number are often displayed somewhere on the PFD and / or ND as well.

Why isn’t TAS displayed on the speed tape instead of the CAS? Aircraft performance, lift produced by the wings etc. is directly related to the CAS rather than TAS. As an example, the aircraft stall speed given as a CAS does not change with change in air density. Stall speed given as a TAS does vary with air density and it is therefore not practical to fly using TAS. We usually calculate the TAS as an intermediate step in calculating the aircraft groundspeed (taking into account the wind) and MACH number. Otherwise TAS does not serve a practical purpose during flight.

Kinetic Energy

Maybe it goes too deep into the weeds. CAS is an indication of the kinetic energy, the lift created by the wings is depending on the kinetic energy of the air passing over it (amongst other factors such as wing area for example). Kinetic energy of an object is calculated by the formule K = 1/2 x M x V2 in which M is the mass of an object and V is the speed of the object.

Its a little difficult to determine the kinetic energy of air passing over the wings as it is not an object which you can simply put on a scale and measure its mass. For the purpose of lift and aircraft performance we calculate the kinetic energy by replacing the M (mass) in the formula by air density (mass of the air per square meter), the letter P (Greek letter “rho”) is commonly used to indicate this.

Relationship CAS, TAS & Density

So: CAS = 1/2 x P x V2, the V in the formula is the TAS. You can see with a simple example that for a constant CAS on the speed tape, TAS differs depending on the density of the air. For a CAS of 10 and an air density of 1, the TAS needs to be 10 as well:

At sea level on a standard day: 10 = 1 x 10

If we now climb at a constant CAS, air density reduces as we climb higher. If we take an air density of 0.5 for example TAS would be 20:

At higher altitude: 10 = 0.5 x 20

Those are of course completely made up numbers and we took the constant out of the equation so its only for illustrative purposes. I hope it at least shows the relationship between CAS and TAS and air density. I tried to keep it simple, I hope I somewhat succeeded :sweat_smile: :upside_down_face:.

TAS → Mach

Local Speed of Sound - The Local Speed of Sound (Speed of sound in TAS) reduces with reducing temperature as you climb. The LSS can be calculated by:

  • LSS = 38.94 * square root of temperature in K (C + 273).

Mach number - The aircraft MACH number is the aircraft speed (TAS) in relation to the local speed of sound, the Mach Number can be calculated by:

  • MN = TAS / LSS

As all current airliners (Concorde was an exception) are designed for subsonic flight only, the Maximum Mach number is generally somewhere between M 0.80 to M 0.90 (80 to 90% the speed of sound), above this speed the airflow on top of the wing will reach the speed of sound and causes shock-waves to form which cause the airflow to separate and wing to stall, Mach tuck causes the nose to lower and the speed to increase even further, aggravating the situation. In short, on an airliner you don’t want the airflow on top of the wings to go supersonic.

When climbing at a constant CAS as we normally do at lower altitude, both the TAS increases as explained above and the temperature, and thus the local speed of sound decreases. Since the Mach Number = TAS / LSS, TAS goes up and LSS goes down (getting closer together), I hope you understand the Mach number increases during climb at constant CAS. If we would continue to climb at constant CAS we will eventually exceed the Mmo. This is the reason you see your max. speed on the speed tape reducing with increase in altitude!

At some point you’ll need to change over from constant CAS climb to constant Mach climb, this altitude is called the “crossover altitude”. In the graph below you can see the relationship between CAS, TAS and MACH illustrated.

  • CAS - The curved lines are CAS, following a curved line you can see the TAS (straight lines) increasing and so does the MN (diagonal lines which become straight at te Tropopause).
  • TAS - similarly when following any straight (TAS) line you can see the CAS decreasing and MN insreasing.
  • MACH - The diagonal line are Mach numbers, those lines reduce until reaching the tropopause. As the temperature at the tropopause remains constant with increase in altitude, the LSS stops reducing and therefore for the line starts to follow the TAS (straight) lines.

If you continue climbing you will eventually reach a point where the low speed stall and high speed stall intersect. Theoretically if you decelerate 1 kt the aircraft will enter an aerodynamic stall, when increasing speed by 1 kt the airflow over the wings reaches the speed of sound and the wing would also start to stall. Of course the point where the two of them get too close together (where insufficient margin exists) is above the maximum allowed altitude for the current conditions. This point is sometimes refered to as “the coffin corner”.

The below example is not specifically for the Airbus, but principles are the same. You can see that climbing at a lower speed and / or higher Mach causes a higher crossover altitude compared to climbing at higher speed and / or lower Mach. In the example below, climb is performed at a lower CAS and lower Mach in comparison to the example descent profile, which flown at higher Mach, changing over to higher CAS.

This explains why while climbing the Airbus with 350 kts causing crossover at 25.500 ft while climbing at 300 kts causing crossover at 31.800 ft as @PZL104 explained above.

Edit: in the above graph only the Mmo is shown, I’ve added the Vmo to the graph using MS Paint to hopefully make it more clear :sweat_smile:. You can see at lower altitudes the Vmo is the limiting factor, at higher altitudes Mmo becomes limiting.

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Simple answer… FBW A320 Neo “Managed Speed” is not functioning correctly?! I have also had issues trying to manually input speed.

IRL Above!!!

I think that might be a different unrelated problem, the OPs question is clearly regarding the overspeed limit reducing with increasing altitude:

Thank you for the explanation! Now I get it :stuck_out_tongue: Thanks everyone

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When I didn’t fully understand this stuff I was amazed as a passenger once, to see the speed of the airplane at something like 1040km/h (777). Wondering the rest of the flight how that was possible. Only later I realized it was groundspeed, independent from airspeed.

I know it has nothing to do with the question. My idea would be that if the airspeed goes down, while the groundspeed goes up, the overspeed goes down too, since that’s a measure of airspeed.

But I’m too late to the party… and that really long and extensive outstanding explanation must hold the key somewhere!

Ahh, sounds like some more incorrect info from SkyLibrary being quoted. Not the first time and won’t be the last that SkyLibrary is at least a bit misleading.

First of all, there are areas of supersonic flow over the top of the wing at speeds well below MMO. These are decelerated to subsonic speeds by weak oblique shocks that don’t have severe consequences. You can oven see these shock waves dancing on the top of the wing surface at normal cruising speed if you are seated over the wing and the light is right.

Second, there are no sudden deadly consequences and no uncontrollable Mach tuck in any transport category airplane if you exceed MMO. One of the certification requirements that these airplanes must meet is that there must be a push force required and no sudden or excessive reduction in elevator control out to the demonstrated dive speed.

VMO/MMO are established to prevent exceeding the dive speed or the airplane’s structural limitations under operating conditions and characteristics likely to result in inadvertent speed increases. It provides a speed margin to allow a pilot to recover to VMO/MMO, considering pilot reaction time to the overspeed warning.

An overspeed is when you exceed VMO/MMO. It isn’t simply a sign of “creating too much aerodynamic resistance/drag” or the number of molecules of air you are “hitting.” As stated above VMO/MMO protect the airplane from exceeding structural limitations and from adverse handling qualities issues if there is an speed excursion. Structurally, the airplane must remain within certain loading condition throughout a defined maneuvering envelope. Aerodynamic loads are a function of equivalent airspeed, which is not very different from calibrated airspeed. So, VMO is typically established as a constant value of KCAS for all altitudes.

But at higher altitudes, a constant VMO result in a higher Mach number (as explained by @anon50268670). Higher Mach numbers change the lift distribution over the wing, leading to Mach tuck issues above the designated dive Mach. As stated above MMO is established to provide a speed margin to prevent that from being a problem. MMO is a constant Mach value for all altitudes, but since the speed of sound decreases with decreasing temperature, the airspeed associated with MMO will decrease with increasing altitude.

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I was trying to keep it simple as I thought my answer was already a bit excessive for the simple question why the :barber: on the speedtape reduces with altitude. But yes there is much more to it than shock stall and tuck :sweat_smile:.

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This is the main point. At high altitude, the airspeed indicator shows a much lower airspeed than the aircraft is actually flying, specifically because the air is thinner (less dense). The airspeed indicator measures the pressure impacting the inlet of the pitot tube, caused by the aircraft’s forward motion, and because there are fewer air molecules at high altitude, the pressure is lower.

Once climbing above approximately 28,000 feet, airliners track Mach number, not calibrated airspeed. There is also “TRUE” airspeed (TAS) which, as the name implies, is the actual speed the aircraft is moving through the air.

Mach number and TAS are calculated automatically by the air data computers that provide the speed and altitude displays.

In your example of 280 knots indicated (calibrated) airspeed at FL350, that gives a TRUE airspeed of approximately 473 knots, (the exact value depends on air temperature), and Mach 0.821. The latter value is what triggers the overspeed warning, because the A320 is limited to a maximum of Mach 0.820.

By contrast, at FL250, 280 knots calibrated airspeed gives a TAS of 404 knots and Mach 0.672

Even in a small, low speed aircraft like a Cessna 172, there will be a difference between calibrated and true airspeeds as the aircraft climbs. At 10,000 feet with standard air temperature, a calibrated airspeed indication of 105 knots will equate to a true airspeed of 122 knots.

Ground speed is simply a function of TAS and wind speed. With no wind at all, GS will equal TAS. With a 100 knot direct tailwind, GS will be 100 knots higher than TAS - with a 100 knot direct headwind, it will be 100 knots slower.

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