Please help explain the differences between gymbol systems

User Support Hub Hardware & Peripherals
1

Hi

I am looking at (well need too) upgrade my twin T16000 and my TFlight HOTAS X sticks for something more precise. I understand that the issue with my sticks is the gimbol system which is a ball and socket - please 'scuse my ignorance if I have got the terms wrong!

The good folk on this board have mentioned two VKB Gladiator and the VKB Gunship. Coming from a T Flight HOTAS, presumably the difference will be pleasant going to Gladiator but why might I want to spend shedloads more for the Gunship gimbol system.

Could someone explain to me the differences between the two VKB gimbol systems? If I didn’t shell out for the Gunship one would I have buyer’s remorse? I like racing sims and Elite Dangerous and have just started getting in to flight sims, if that helps?

Thank you very much

Andy

Edit:

For the lulz, I asked ChatGPT…

Here’s a simple number scale to represent the relative smoothness and precision of the gimbal systems in the TFlight HOTAS X, VKB Gladiator, and VKB Gunfighter joysticks:

Number Scale:

  • 0: Worst Joystick Gimbal
  • 100: Best Joystick Gimbal

Positioning on the Scale:

  • TFlight HOTAS X:

    • Position: 20
    • Description: The TFlight HOTAS X, with its ball and cup system, is a basic entry-level joystick. It provides limited precision and smoothness, making it suitable for beginners but far from ideal for serious sim enthusiasts.

  • VKB Gladiator:

    • Position: 70
    • Description: The VKB Gladiator base offers a significant improvement with its spring and cam system. It provides much better precision and smoothness, making it ideal for more serious users. It’s a balanced option for those who want good performance without breaking the bank.

  • VKB Gunfighter:

    • Position: 95
    • Description: The VKB Gunfighter is among the best joystick bases available, featuring a dual-ball bearing and cam system. It delivers exceptional precision and smoothness, appealing to professional sim pilots and enthusiasts who demand the best performance.

Best and Worst Joysticks:

  • Worst Joystick: Generic or very low-end joysticks (e.g., some old noname joysticks) might sit at 0-10 on this scale due to poor build quality, high friction, and lack of precision.
  • Best Joystick: The VKB Gunfighter (at 95) is one of the top-rated for smoothness and precision, only slightly behind very high-end, custom-built setups that might sit closer to 100.
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Hi AndysonofBob, and welcome to the forum and the hobby.

I started out with the Thrustmaster T Flight Hotas X, and it basically uses the same gimbal as the other Thrustmaster and Logitech products as you noted, the plastic ball and socket. There are some minor variations in implementation but basically this is cheap and effective and does the job, but that’s about it. By virtue of the design, it doesn’t have proper, precise movement axes, and it also doesn’t therefore have decent bearings or adjustable (by much) springs. Quite often the quality of the sensors, wiring and general build around these gimbals leave a lot to be desired too.

There are other well-liked sim controls from the likes of Virpil, WinWing and others, but having tried a lot of different systems over the years, my personal preference is for VKB. I have found their quality and reliability to be faultless, and the support available from forums, including VKB’s own and also the company themselves should you have any questions, is amazing.

Currently they offer two distinct ranges of joysticks: the entry-level NXT range, which includes the Gladiator flightstick plus a load of different control modules, and the high-end Gunfighter base and gimbal, which can be paired with a variety of different grips.

Note that ‘entry-level’ in this instance is really to be considered as the entry level to high end controls. The Gladiator is not in the same ballpark as anything made by Thrustmaster, it’s playing at a totally different level.

Gimbal-wise, the Gladiator has a pincer type gimbal, made of a combination of metal and plastic. Movement of the stick in pitch or roll directions acts on plastic pincer jaws that are held in tension by a spring, and move apart from each other as you move the stick. The advantages are that all moving parts are on ball-bearings, and the spring weights can be adjusted by fitting different springs. The Gladiator also has separate contactless sensors, and each axis has a separate adjustable damping mechanism via dry clutches, although you need to take the base off to get to them. This all contributes to a far superior feel over the plastic ball and socket type, along with meaningful adjustability. The stick also twists to control rudders.

The disadvantages are that you can’t change the movement profile, or curve, by physical means (although you can do it using VKB’s configuration software), and the plastic parts ultimately limit the input force and also the spring weights that can be used, so the Gladiator is not suitable for use with a grip extension other than the Omni throttle.

The Gunfighter base uses a cam type gimbal, where inputs act on metal cams via roller bearings, that are solidly mounted at one end and held in tension by adjustable springs. The cam arms themselves can be swapped for different profiles - ‘aviation’, with progressive loading, or linear ‘space’ cams. All parts of the base and gimbal are metal, much stronger and with more bearings than the pincer type, so it can cope with higher spring loads and input forces via the 100mm or 200mm grip extensions. The Gunfighter also has spring pre-tensioners, so you can adjust the overall feel and tension, and eliminate changes in feel at the centre or when changing direction. It has adjustable dampers similar in effect to the Gladiator, and contactless sensors throughout, even for the twist. You can choose whichever grip you like, and the only disadvantage here is the cost.

If you want a stick or even a pair of sticks to improve on your T16000M’s, you will immediately notice a huge improvement in feel and quality if you went for the Gladiator. It’s easy to use and mount, can be had in left or right handed versions, and the other NXT modules like throttle and SEM can be mounted directly on the sides of the Gladiator base.

If you think you might take flight sim a lot more seriously, or if you want to seriously increase the realism, such as when flying helicopters or warbirds, the Gunfighter base and a grip of your choice is the ultimate option, adding more smoothness, feel and adjustability over the Gladiator.

However, there’s no need to plump for one of those right away. If you had a Gladiator and ultimately wanted to move up, they are very easy to shift on the second-hand market at minimal losses, as they only come up very rarely - a sure sign that once people have them, they tend to keep them. My one did over 1,000 flying hours in MSFS, and still looked and felt exactly the same as when brand new before I upgraded to the Gunfighter with MCGU grip.

1 Like
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That is unbelievable helpful. And thank you very much for the welcome. :slight_smile:

I think I will go for the Gladiator or maybe pre-order WinWing’s upcoming… erm… equivalent to the Gladiator as it also come with simple haptics which I find compelling.

I have noticed that pretty much all of these non ball and socket joysticks all seem to have interchangable sticks and as you mentioned you can change the springs and apparently lock axis to turn them to throttles.

I don’t know if this is feasible but your post gave me an idea and would minimise any buyer’s remorse that I am prone to because I am pathetic. Do you think this would work?

  1. A TWCS throttle (I impulse bought yesterday) to go with my MS Sidewinder Force Feedback 2, that I dug out because I just couldn’t get on with any of my Thrustmasters and needed a throttle and more buttons.
  2. I will pre-order WinWing’s Gladiator style base to go with the throttle (using the haptics to wean me off the ffb*)
  3. Then, if I continue to fall for flight sims I will buy once and cry once for the Gunship and buy a wonky stick for the Gladiator to turn it into a throttle to replace my TWCS!

Does that sound feasible?

Thanks!

apostrophe I have been spoilt by exceptional ffb in racing sims and in my brief forays in DCS World and MSFS, even with the excellent XPForce, currently find ffb in flight sims to be a little underwhelming, far less informative and less essential.

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Hi again.

No worries, happy to help on gimbals / sticks or whatever.

You should spend your cash however you see fit. The gimbal of the Winwing Ursa Minor appears to be a very close copy of the one fitted to the VKB Gladiator, so I guess you’ll get the inherited benefits of that design, although it hasn’t been around long enough for there to be any info on the quality or reliability of the rest of it.

As I said in the other thread about FFB, I think from IRL experience that what ffb / haptics does in flight sim controller terms is highly unrealistic and totally irrelevant, but if you want that then go for the Ursa Minor.

Your suggested path, starting out with the WW Ursa Minor joystick and then later converting it to an omni throttle to be used alongside a better joystick like the VKB Gunfighter base with MCG or SCG grip would definitely work, but you’d then be dealing with two manufacturers ecosystems and software.

To avoid this I would personally get the Gladiator first, and then if I wanted to go further, add the Gunfighter later. If you go with Winwing and get the Ursa Minor, perhaps look to add an Orion later so you can use the same software for both.

As I said, I’ve used a lot of different controllers but don’t have any experience with WinWing, so I’d check out a few comparative reviews and also company / user support options to be sure.