PMDG 737 Discussion (PC Version) (Part 1)

Having delved into the low & slow / VOR and NDB world for a while it’s been months since I’ve flown any heavy iron including the 737. Won’t make that mistake again. This aging brain forgot everything about how to fly this fine bird and what a rewarding experience it was. So I started from scratch relearning everything today and in no time I was up again.

I was several versions old by now and I realized that many updates transpired including the tablet. So I researched this informative thread and came to the conclusion I’d probably need to uninstall and do a fresh install to avoid several problems that have been experienced according to the forums. Laziness got the better of me however and I just updated using the Ops Center. One click, that was it. I was shocked that everything thus far seems perfect. All previous settings there, all add on liveries, all systems working great! The update did trash my custom cabin view settings but that took all of 2 min’s to re-do.

The most pleasant surprise for me was that all the changes did nothing to impact the outstanding sim performance I’ve always enjoyed from this product. For me that’s the most important thing for an add-on aircraft and I dare say PMDG remains the king of the complexity/performance ratio for MSFS. Now I haven’t yet fiddled with the tablet and may never do so, the present experience being immensely satisfying for me already. Thanks to PMDG for creating such a magnificent offering for our sim.

I began commercial flying at 36 years old and ended up with 15 years as a 747 captain. Luck and persistence play big roles in any airline career. So enjoying the 737 NG, flew all the 737’s before this series IRL, so it’s fun learning some newer technology. Looking forward to the 747 as that plane was always my true love as a flying machine.

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I just want to say a massive thank you to former snail and stearman and also captain Tom…

To you stearman… Gave me a massive laugh :rofl::rofl::rofl: at 105 I can still fly planes

Former snail…
I guess it’s definitely the case of a passionate aviation geeek from the 90s when I first ever saw a Bae 146 depart from my old home town in NZ and growing up on Hs748, 737-200s at Rotorua, going to Auckland airport and seeing the last of the 727s, Dc10s, 742s.. that then became ATR, A320s 777s of today

I always had a massive passion for aviation..
Being from NZ and knowing just how small the pool is, mixed in with not having the best time during my teens with a few hard times (you know… The usual teen mental health stuff…) as a result, not so great high-school marks… I kinda just thought it was a forgone conclusion…
But…
With a uk passport that I got through my dad, living here for theast two years and seeing jist how many aircraft there are and of course msfs2020…
Giving me a whole new outlook on flying… I’ve been a simmer since “for windows 95” it’s only been the last four years that I’ve learnt how to program the fms, do VOR approaches and after doing RL truck driving and knowing the real side of what aviation pilots would have in similar terms…

I just have that thought of maybe… Just maybe there is a small window still there…

What would one tip be from you to decide if I would actually be able to pass one of those full courses… Would I have to go to night school and be better with math…??A medical first…??Eye test… ??
If I can do almost everything in a pmdg 737… Am I almost there :joy::joy: (msfs and real world is completely different I bet…)
What would be one thing you see fellow pupils fail on the most (apart from a medical or eye exam)

I guess what I’m asking, regarding today and becoming a airline pilot…

Is it like those golden ages of flying…1910s-1930s… You just have a natural skill and passion of operating a plane and it’s all about (hands on practical/experience) where you just flew a plane and it went from there “winging it.”
More of the 1950s-1980s you had to know everything that there need to to be regarding complex math and trigonometry skills off the bat and navigation…
Or is it a lot more automated and a bit of both…

People that you studied with…

Were there the golden ages type that had that passion but not quite the math and navigation skill that wasn’t a issue, just the natural ability to fly that got them through …
Or was it those people who just didn’t quite make it…
And was it pure math and physics type students that were the only ones standing so to speak…

I’m guessing there are some pilots who only did it through parents and were naturally gifted with math and physics that don’t really want to be pilots but are…
Some who struggled with the math and physics but somehow managed to just scrap through that have gone leaps and bounds
And some who just simply had the 100% passion ans drive but the math was just the only thing stopping them from reaching their dream..

If there was one thing apart from a medical that would stop someone passionate, dead in their tracts, especially when it came to the very last exam or hurdle… What was it that saw your mates in class not join you to the finish line

I would take advantage of that UK passport, head to Europe and find the cheapest place you can get your licenses. The airlines don’t care where you got your licenses from, especially the ones who would hire you as a cadet and train you from scratch. In Ryanair I flew with people who got their licenses for 70000€ working two jobs and people who spent 140000€ in a posh flightschool paid by daddy. It makes absolutely no difference at all. So Poland and other NE European countries are a good option to obtain your frozen ATPL. Spain too (long good weather seasons so less flight cancelling). The theoretical exams and the syllabus are the same and completely unified in every European country. Then I’d just try to join any serious airline that takes cadets: Ryanair, Wizzair, Easyjet, etc. They won’t give you the career of your dreams but the training will be high quality with a very quick progression towards command (4 or 5 years). After a few years in one of these companies it won’t be difficult to get a job at any airline in the world including US or Middle East carriers.

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@Fragman444,

There’s all types of people who are pilots… and that’s a good thing. It provides different perspectives, different skills, and different strengths.

I’ve known people who had zero idea what they wanted to do with their life during High School, but were well accomplished in school and extracurricular activities/sports. On a whim, they decided to apply to the USAF Academy (which some kids spend their lives up to that point trying to get a slot and don’t get the chance). Once in, they had no idea what they wanted to do and on a whim, decided to go for a pilot slot and had no idea what it was about. They graduated, went to pilot training and finished at the top of the class. They ended up flying F-22s.

I’ve seen other people who were airplane fanatics since they were a kid who either dropped out of pilot training or were eliminated. Sometimes, their expectations of what they thought flying was about didn’t match reality. Sometimes airsickness got the better of them. A few people find out they have a fear related to some aspect of flying they can’t overcome. Sometimes they didn’t pick up flying skills fast enough. Some people couldn’t figure out how to think ahead of the jet and would only react to things after they happened in flight. Much of the time, they just didn’t like flying as much as they thought they would.

For the people who become fully qualified pilots, there are people who see it as “just a job” and have zero interest in aviation besides getting a paycheck. For many of them, they said they never spent a single cent on aviation and they refuse to ever spend a single cent to fly on their own. There are others who spend every waking moment in aviation and their life is centered around it. Then there’s everyone else in between.

There are some “Johny Goldenhands” types that have really good stick and rudder skills and pick it up immediately. There are others who don’t have as good stick and rudder skills, but have really good conceptual understanding of aviation and have a phenomenal memory for the tens of thousands of pages of rules, regulations, and flight manuals. There are some people that really struggle initially, then something finally clicks with them and they get really good at it. Then there’s everyone else in the “average” category.

Tying this back into PMDG 737, these days, flying large aircraft is mostly focused on systems monitoring: data input, confirmation of data input, monitoring correct progression of the planned flight profile, understand how to get the systems to respond correctly when you need to deviate from the plan due to weather, ATC direction, or aircraft malfunctions, and having the knowledge and training to work though unexpected events, malfunctions, or anything else you can’t 100% plan and program in advance.

Modern complex aircraft have systems and avionics handle most of the math, physics, and navigation problems for the aircrew. That’s how large aircraft only need 2 people in the cockpit now. Like the PMDG 737 demonstrates, modern complex aircraft are flown through following established procedures, correctly using complex systems and avionics, and thinking ahead to start working through changes to the plan early. Pure stick and rudder skills are now relegated to a secondary importance until an emergency situation takes place.

Most pilot math these days is simple rules to follow to quickly calculate fuel usage, how far it will take you to descend, and some navigation related rules of thumb. If you can add and subtract, you have the math skills you need to fly in modern aviation.

To put it more clearly, many US airlines have removed the requirement to even have a college degree. You just needed to have graduated high school now…

Medical conditions, self-doubt, lack of desire, or money, really are what will keep the vast majority of people out of aviation these days.

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Nice summary. I do wonder about the main focus of pilotage these days is being a competent “systems manager” at the expense of basic flying skills. Who knows, maybe that’s for the best. Saw another RL pilot above mention that on occasion, in his airline, they will fly approaches based on raw data. The thought of that filled me with terror. From a simming perspective, I consider myself to be a fantastic “systems manager” and always get the PMDG 737 from point A to point B with no drama. Flying just with the numbers, is way outside of my comfort zone.

Noted that after nearly a month of silence, PMDG put out a product update. In it, there was no mention about the 737, all was focuses on the upcoming triple 7. I hope we aren’t going to see this product slip by the wayside. At end of last year, they had a flurry of updates but it was my understanding that they still had more to do.

I think the biggest single thing the 737 line is missing is the ability to fly RF legs. As I understand, that entails a full rewrite of the FMC simulation software to use the newer-generation navdata format. With luck, the work done to develop the 777 will have included that functionality, and will enable that to be back-ported to the 737.

Of course, the XBox folks, the biggest single thing missing in the tablet, but that’s now in MSobo’s court now that PMDG has demonstrated that the SDK features across the two platforms do not actually match, despite what they claimed.

I’m not up to speed on all the tech involved, what are “RF Legs”?

Short version: A method to define paths based on a radius to a fix. It’s part of PBN (Performance based navigation).

Long version:
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap1_section_2.html

PMDG still uses the old Navigraph database format which contains only points. The airplane joins them with a bezier. For example if in a procedure you see a dme arc, in a PMDG airplane’s legs page you wouldn’t see an arc but instead you would see a sequence of points joined together resulting in an arc. This isn’t so in the real database anymore. You would see an actual legs entry for ARC. Navigraph today does contain RF Legs in their database but PMDG still can’t make use of them while airplanes from other developers can. It’s loooong overdue.

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The decay of hand-flying skills is an identified problem within the complex aircraft aviation community. Some people refer to it as “The Children of the Magenta Line” to highlight problems of those who just follow what the avionics tells them to do.

In normal operation, there are serious safety benefits brought out by the modern navigation and avionics systems. There’s lots of hard data backing this up.

There’s also data that shows people are running into problems more commonly now once in an emergency or non-normal situations. This gets worse when people don’t fully understand the complex systems on the aircraft, the automation behaves improperly, or things just fail.

I truly miss the large amounts of hand flying I did back in my C-130 days. Hours of hand flying low-levels at 300-500 feet AGL, crazy approaches to dirt airstrips, and flying how you needed to fly. I had lots of automation and “magenta lines” available to me, but I’d often use those to back up my hand flying or mental understanding of what needed to happen multiple steps down the road. In the end, I’d veto the computer systems telling me what to do more than I’d change my flying to match the computer systems because of the dynamic nature of tactical flying and reacting to dynamic threats. But to get there, you end up doing vastly more training than in any civilian large aircraft training program. It’s very expensive and time consuming to develop that flying mentality and it’s not really needed or appropriate in airline flying.

PMDG 737 helps out here because of all the non-normal and emergency procedures you’re able to accomplish. Hand fly stuff. Turn off the flight director and perform true raw data approaches. Fly missed-approaches. Fly with engine failures, degraded systems, or even something like manual-reversion. Practice a cargo fire and a subsequent divert to an unplanned airfield. Most of those are outside everyone’s comfort zones, but it adds an interesting twist to flying and provides some helpful training.

EDIT: OMB_NG_s03_r00 (737ng.co.uk)

Here’s a link for a representative 737 Quick Reference Handbook. Each operator and 737 variant has their own specific QRH, but for sim purposes, this is good enough. You can either enable random malfunctions on the PMDG sim and follow the QRH as appropriate, or force the aircraft into these malfunctions and work through the QRH.

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Man im sure you must have some crazy stories. I was a contractor at a C130 base and have a healthy respect for the Herky Bird.

If I’m flying my PMDG 737 and and worried about showing up on enemy radar or having to take evasive action from a MANPAD id probiably hand fly as well.

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I asked the question about RF legs. It, uh, didn’t go over well.

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I wonder why you try to make us unhappy with your questions :laughing:

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I’m just a miserable, monocular person. :grin:

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I’ve read so many of your posts here on this forum, and I wouldn’t have viewed you in that way, at all.

RSR is really referring to you this way?

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Did you mention Wx again? :wink:

What you said… exactly.
I’m a wee bit in shock :exploding_head:

Looks to me that RSR was responding directly to “Marc”, who was responding to StearmanDriver’s question. Not sure who “Andrew” is.