My flight plan took me in via SEA and I followed the 325 radial to ISOGE. Now my assumption is that the holding pattern depicted on the approach chart shows the procedure to use for course reversal to align with the approach path (correct me if that’s wrong), but what about the entry into the pattern? I thought, because of the angle/direction I’m coming towards the holding fix, and based on the entry pattern rules I found online, it should be a parallel entry, flying outbound from ISOGE at 135 degrees for one minutes and then a left turn greater than 180 back to the inbound course, like this:
So that made me wonder, do the standard pattern entry rules apply in this case here (and P2ATC’s instructions were just incorrect), or can it be flown either way?
Though you’re right to enter with a parallel entry, you are not ‘established’ in the hold until you pass over the hold fix on the stated course, that is the point you carry out the hold procedure which in this case is clockwise.
The chart says “Radar and DME required”. This means that ATC will give you vectors to ISOGE, which is the IAF (Initial Approach Fix). The heavy line on the hold pattern means that the holding pattern is mandatory (you can’t just fly a procedure turn), and you must hold until released by ATC.
The first diagram is the correct procedure – sort of. Since you are left of the outbound course, you should use a parallel entry, but not exactly as shown. That looks more like a procedure turn, not a parallel entry into the hold. If you fly it exactly as drawn, then when you reach point 4 inbound, you’re going to have to make a pretty sharp turn back outbound to begin the first hold.
This. The entry to the holding pattern does not count as a hold. As Hurt says, until you pass the initial hold fix inbound, you haven’t finished your entry yet.
The correct procedure is to make your outbound turn at point 3 at max bank (25 degrees?) and come all the way around to intercept the inbound course. That will have to on the inbound course at point 4, at which time you make your 1-minute 180 degree turn back outbound towards point 2 (also a 1 minute leg), the turn back 180 degrees to intercept the inbound leg, then based on ATC instructions either continue holding or do the approach.
As for P2ATC, I use it, too – and like it a lot. But as of this post, I don’t believe it does holds like in this scenario. So what you’re seeing is probably P2ATC just substituting a procedure turn for right now.
Hope that answers your questions, and congratulations on your desire to keep learning!!!
In general, after getting to the fix that starts the reverse approach (in the above case TAVPI), how do you precisely navigate the reverse course if you don’t have/use GPS? Can you use the ILS back course of the AP to follow 263 degrees until IGVAN and then fly the procedure turn, or just manually fly heading 263 and try to take any wind into account?
You are going to definitely need NAV1 tuned to 109.5 (IVR the localizer). I look up the approach, and this is the ILS 08R. It requires DME so you know where those waypoints are.
I would have NAV2 set to YVR because it’s both your starting point and the missed approach navaid.
After intercepting YVR and flying 303 degrees toward TAVPI at 3000 feet, I would have the NAV1 course set to 83 degrees so the procedure turn and inbound interception are more “standard”.
Yes, that means you are going to be flying reverse needle sensing going outbound. You can either do that mentally (fly away from the needle to center it) or press the Back Course button while outbound. That’s what the Back Course mode does – if the needle is to the left of course, it turn RIGHT to intercept it. I know that seems weird, but it’s the right thing to do.
I recommend practicing reverse needle sensing on a simple VOR radial at a constant altitude somewhere to get a good feel for it. It one of those weird – but cool – things in both VFR and IFR flying. GPS gets boring after a while!
Note that if you are trying to use LNAV mode to have the AP fly the outbound leg, you definitely need to turn on back course. But I would recommend flying this using heading mode the whole way, or at least until after the procedure turn inbound. Just don’t forget to mentally use reverse needle sensing on the outbound leg.
Thanks B!
That was exactly the level of detail I was looking for, greatly appreciated.
Indeed that’s what I found myself, and why I’m now trying VOR airway navigation, DME arcs, PT approaches etc - it’s just way more fun. And it’s a great way to utilize the other gadgets I have (Logitech Multipanel, and just got a FIP on which I’m running an ILS gauge), they help with those procedures a lot and make it more interesting/realistic…
Another question that occurred to me while planning a new flight (sorry if I’m highjacking my own thread here) is regarding charted DME arc altitude. Let’s take the following chart:
The chart for the DME arc lists an altitude of 4000 feet - in general, is it mandatory to fly the published altitude until I fully leave the arc, or can I start descending earlier (and if so when) to ease the descent down to 2100 at BUHRS in the above example ?
And related to that, are you expected to enter the DME arc at the charted altitude (so for the example above, be at 4000 ft at LANKE) ?
How to properly fly these approaches is a very good topic. Maybe you should create such a topic and get some CFIIs involved. I am not a CFII, but here is my understanding of this DME arc approach you show.
NOTE: Any CFIIs, please feel free to correct anything I get wrong!!!
The DME arc notation says you must be at 4000 feet from LANKE (the IAF) until intercepting the ILS. Waypoints are generally notated as shown for LANKE, with a gray “from” radial and a DME distance. The arc altitude is always between two waypoints – in this case between LANKE and BOILR. The reason BOILR is the second waypoint is because it is 16 DME from ONP – the same distance and reference as the DME arc. If you think of it as an autopilot “fly by” point – not a “fly over” – then it becomes clear that you must maintain 4000 feet until you’ve made the turn onto the ILS.
(Note that the gray 350 degree radial is for identifying CUTEL, and is not marking a waypoint on the DME arc. If it was, there would be a named waypoint triangle on the arc.)
The leg of the ILS between BOILR to BUHRS is described by the notation out to the right (just above the “16” in the DME arc notation), and says that the leg is 162 degrees inbound, 9.4 nm in length, and should be flown at-or-above 2100 feet. In the profile view, we can further see that the glide slope will be intercepted at BUHRS (6.6 DME) at 2100 feet.
So the correct way to fly this procedure is to:
Intercept LANKE (29 degree radial from ONP at 16 DME) at 4000 feet.
Fly the 16 DME arc at 4000 feet until turning onto the localizer 162 degree inbound course.
Descend to 2100 feet during the next 9 nm.
Intercept the GS at BUHRS (should intercept at 2100 feet).
Fly the remaining approach and land.
I don’t mind discussing these approaches, but it’s not the intent of this thread and I think others will benefit greatly from a dedicated thread about ILS approaches. If you create a new topic with your next approach, I promise I will visit!
As always, B, thanks for the details, and greatly appreciated!
Here you go
This time it actually wasn’t about ILS but just a VOR approach I chose, where new questions regarding DME arcs came to my mind (I repeated one or two that you already answered here for the sake of completeness).
Here’s another question for real world pilots that matches the theme of ILS approaches with a holding pattern, a flight that I did recently (KRNO ILS Rwy 34L):
Coming in on radial 071 from SWR towards APIME this would suggest a direct entry, correct? So once I reach APIME, would I still first turn left and then immediately try to follow the 180 turn onto the outbound leg? Or just continue straight and then try to establish a turn leading onto the outbound leg? And if so which instruments / operational steps would I use to anticipate the turn to get onto the outbound leg?
