Questions re: Navigation for Analog-era (older) Pilots

Discussion Hub Real-life Aviation
1

First, I have nothing but profound respect for you pilots who learned in the era of analog aviation.

As a member “Generation X”, I’m of that last group of people who experienced an analog world and experienced the transition to a digital one.

Having experienced both, I prefer the analog — it offers more for my mind/body to be involved with.

Regarding my post. I’ve picked up FAA sectionals for the regions I do most of my flights in. I’ve got a course plotting protractor and an E6-B. I’ve been wanting to work with these for planning flights.

The initial question I have is did you pilots carry a second copy of your paper charts on-board that you could fold and dog-ear and have a pristine version you kept “at home” for flight planning? Or did you just bring the same charts with you up into the skies?

I’m also curious how you managed these sectionals in a cramped cockpit?! I find these things unwieldy sitting here at my simming station. I can’t quite fathom trying to unfold and locate a VOR on one while trying to make sure I didn’t knock any critical flight controls!

Anyhow, I’m just very curious how you managed your paper navigation while underway.

6 Likes
2

I had one set of VFR sectionals that I did both my flight planning on and also used in the cockpit (No#2 pencil and eraser required). In the airplane, I used a knee board with the sectional folded to display the route. This was important because may times you had to use landmarks to identify where you were.
Today I use an iPad with the sectionals loaded (efb), connected to a waas gps.

image

image

2 Likes
3

Can’t speak for masses, but charts are only good for certain period and money was always tight so only one copy folded and unfolded to knee pad form, or if a XC crossed an edge sometimes I would photocopy and make a flip book kind of thing. Pre-digital flying was sometimes a paper nightmare, and trying to keep track of where I was on the chart to not get lost - was not very reliable and pre-GPS with the VOR reception “iffy” did make that paper very inportant.

1 Like
4

I have that very knee board right here.

Folded and dog-eared sectionals it shall be then!

Thanks for the input, gents!

3 Likes
5

I too used my kneeboard for my charts and copy of my flight plan. Even though new charts are nicely folded, I would unfold the chart and fold it to a smaller size. Flying cross-country I would occasionally get off track and have to chart a new course. Depending on the circumstances, it would be too difficult to plot a new course in a cramped cockpit. I would land at a nearby uncontrolled airstrip and spread out my chart(s) on the engine cowling. Good times!

2 Likes
6

That is seriously fantastic! Like a real adventurer!

7

I just had one set that I used for planning and took in the plane with me. I started of with a Jeppesen circular slide rule (basically an E6-B) but over time I wrote a Basic programme on my TRS80 (showing my age right there, aren’t I? :grin:) Had to learn about reading and storing data to file, reading and storing memory variables etc. etc. Every time I used a new reporting point or destination I added the lat/long and runway altitude. I used basic trig calcs in the programme. I also created a lookup/interpolation routine for magnetic variation based on lat/long.

Also had a database of aircraft with TAS at different altitudes at different power settings, fuel burn per power setting, endurance, climb speed, rate of climb etc.

For flight planning: selected existing and/or added new reporting points and destination, altitude and fuel load. Added winds aloft per leg in my flight planning, programme calculated GS and drift, times to reporting points and destination, fuel at each point. It was remarkably accurate: if I was 5 minutes out on a 4 hour flight I was not happy!

Later I converted it to Basic on PC and finally to dBase: lot easier to manage data with that!

I had all the sectionals in sequence in my flight bag, each one folded to show the track and each reporting point for my flight. My computer programme printed out a great log with estimated times and column for actuals. Also all nav and com frequencies as required.

One fun thing: I have seen some discussions on the merits of north up or track up on GPS. To me having north up is inconceivable: I learned to fly with the map on my lap, with the track oriented with the aircraft. In that way what you saw on the map is what you saw on the ground.

I also always had my manual flight circular slide rule with me for just in case and also to do the calcs for the return flight: those were the days before portable computers/laptops and WAY before powerful cell phones!

Good times!

4 Likes
8

I grew up with several of those and I still have the Model 100 that I was just recently playing around with!

This is seriously cool and so ahead of it’s time!

1 Like
9

GenX/Y here - I’m enjoying using the sim as much as I can. I have sectionals and TAC charts here at home for fun - I haven’t started my actual training yet, other than taking a bunch of classes on King Schools online - but it’s neat to have a hand on the “past” while we learn the future of planning using apps and digital means.

The more you can cross-learn, the better you are, I think. The reality I’m seeing is that the in-game flight planner is actually OK in some regards since it helps you plan and navigate and gives you options, and the default altitudes and routes are reasonable to start with and can be adjusted per your specific needs.

Anyway, it’s a good topic. I’m curious about this bridge between the past and the present - I like flying VOR to VOR but finding that hard to do in many of the Glass Cockpits in-game since they tend to use RNAV GPS positions and routes.

I like to picture myself in an analog bird with charts in hand like you said. Maybe a few markers or pencils and a head lamp. Keeping us on course! You never know when you’ll need those skills.

10

Wonderful to hear of someone that still knows about TRS computers! I am really annoyed with myself that at some stage I threw away the floppies with the programmes on them. Started out with 5 1/4 and later transferred to 3 1/2. In one of my periodic cleaning crazes I threw it all out. Also some other programmes that held great professional pride for me. I am sure I would have been able to get some Basic and dBase 3 emulators for current PCs: would have loved to fire it up now and laugh at the quaint history!

Taking a look at my logbook (at least I have not thrown THAT away!), I must have started the programme around 1980.

1 Like
11

A while ago I went quite a bit old school: my sister in South Africa (who got her PPL back at age 77!) was flying from Stellenbosch (FASH) to Augrabies Airport (FALG). So I decided I would “fly with her” at the same time in the sim!

We decided to use the same basic flight plan: she drew up hers on paper, I did it in LNM. There are essentially no navaids on the line, so I drew a straight line between the two, identified landmarks on the ground and used those as waypoints. I got the winds that she got from the local weather office from her and I used those in an online E6-B calculator for drift and GS. Put all that info in a spreadsheet flight log, turned off LNM, did not export the LNM flight plan. Drew a straight line on Google maps and that became my “paper sectional” in my virtual aircraft. I used the steam C172 and never looked at the GPS.

Got in the aircraft and took off around the same time she did. We texted each other updates. Well, our niece was with her in the aircraft so I texted her on those times that they had cellular reception. Same as I used to do in real life, I followed the track on Google maps and, as I saw landmarks in the sim, I identified the landmarks on the “ground” to check and confirm my track and time.

The one navaid I used was the UPV VORDME at Upington: my destination was 51DME on the 274 radial. I used that as a convenient check at the end.

This really was a most enjoyable trip down memory lane.

6 Likes
12

(1) Same charts –
(2) After a time, you learn to fold them in an optimum way, for your specific route… but yes, often a fight in the cockpit !!

Loved the Analogue Era, made you think—
Love the new Digital Era, but have to think more and not just accept all that DIGITAL additional information on those Screens as Gospel.

2 Likes
13

The fact that you could do this with the sim is quite remarkable. This sim is absolutely incredible in the way one can truly fly VFR. I’m consistently amazed at how I can navigate the State of CA from the air now just by visual reference.

How did your times work out? Did you arrive roughly at the same time?

Getting a PPL at 77 is a pretty inspirational feat.

1 Like
14

Nope, even flying for the military when Uncle Suger paid for my flight publications (FLIP.) I only had one copy. We did have a flight planning room with another set, but getting to your Q2 I always planned with my set. As a starving instrument pilot trying to get enough hours for my commercial, there was no way I had the money for two sets of paper charts. Heck, I had to have a photocopy of the POH for the Cutless that I rarely flew.

As for chart management, that is something you had to learn quickly as a single pilot IFR type person. Having to reach over into the back of the airplane once on a stage check taught me quickly the need for organization. Paper clips were my friend that was until 3M came up with those colored post-its. You could cut them up to make colored tabs. Yellow departure, Orange arrival, Blue en route, and Pink Alternate. The other thing I was taught was the Time, Distance, and Speed dog houses. I could use a pencil and artist gum eraser and put the dog houses on the IFR charts. Thus my routing was clear on the chart. Where I trained I was right in between two charts, so that sucked. In fact, my home airfield was overlapped on both charts.

Flying a King Air and having a range of North America or Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East I started to carry a 30-pound chart case. One of those roll-along-behind-you cases that you use to see Airline Captains tote. We also had Jepesens back in the old paper days as well. Until you have suffered through the Jepsen chart update you have not been hazed properly. It was a nightmare every 28 days to have to go through the Jeps and play find the page. You had to use the index and make sure to tick off each page as some pages were removed and destroyed.

That being said flying today with Foreflight is a massive time saver. One device has the entire world’s worth of flight publications paper that automatically updates for me. There is also room for all my charts which are digitally presented as moving maps. Flight planning in Europe is not an hour-plus-long adventure in frustration. I have talked to people who flight-planned Europe, but doing it in a turbojet is easy. Try finding routes for non-RVSM Turboprops moving 150 knots slower. I will take my EFB and software-based flight planning any day of the week. People who find enjoyment in doing this the old-school way must be sadomasochistic.

Not to mention the NOTAM dance. I have had hundreds of pages of NOTAMs for a single flight. Try to find what is important when you have over a hundred pages of stuff. Having Foreflight parse NOTAMs right where they are relevant is a massive time saver. Not to mention a potential violation saver. Having a 35-year flying career without a single violation. I was not good back in the old days, just darn lucky.

3 Likes
15

I recognize for the commercial pilot, the advent of electronic publications has been revolutionary.

In my synopsis, I clearly didn’t write a deep enough introduction to explain thoroughly who I am and how I interact with the world.

I’ve found a “happy place” of balancing analog and digital life. I drive only manual gearbox cars built no later than the 20th century. However, for Overlanding in my 4WD, I use digital maps and GPS on an iPad via suction cup mount to the windscreen.

I have no doubt that should I secure that Cessna 140 or 170 with an original instrument panel that I so desire, I would, without a doubt, use my tablet for navigation and reference in the air.

There is absolutely a positive side to the technology we have developed. It’s what has made aviation so safe that we take it all for granted.

For me, personally, I just get bored by a computer doing it all for me. When I watch a video of a group of individuals going through the pre-takeoff and takeoff procedures in a B-17, it reminds me of the beauty of a symphony where individuals come together and produce something incredible as a unit.

As amazing as an Airbus is with all its automation, it will never bring tears to my eyes the way watching and listening to a human flight crew work together to put a massive analog aircraft in the air.

We lose something of ourselves every single time we hand a duty off to a computer.

1 Like
16

While crew coordination has changed it is still there. In fact, crew coordination on a highly automated airplane is just as significant, albeit different. Teaching a single-pilot airplane, the King Air, to an organization that flies it crewed is always amusing. This is especially so when I have previously qualified guys come in trying to do things with that single-pilot mentality. Fortunately, in a Level D sim, I have ways of overloading people to demonstrate the advantage of the crew concept.

Thinking that we have lost something over the years as we went from super-charged piston pounders with a crew of eight to modern aircraft with a crew of two is really a simplistic way of viewing aviation. I can point to the case where a simple lat/long transposition of a single digit caused a crew of six to smack into the side of a mountain. This was despite the airplane being equipped with an FMS and advanced EGPWS system, but not a forward-looking TAWS.

The King Airs I teach are all equipped with advanced avionics. In fact, the time I use to spend on the nut and bolts of systems has been replaced with proper management of black boxes. We still teach emergency procedures and what flipping a switch does in systems. But, when the fuel system is mostly automated and there are only a few switches to flip I really don’t need to discuss the things that might happen, and oh by the way there is nothing you can do about it. It is called “Land as soon as possible” for a reason. :grinning: But, this means that I find myself more than I’d like to admit having to drag stubborn old guys from NDB approaches to RNP A approaches.

It is a PBN world. Nostalgia is fine but don’t think for one second the world has become simpler due to automation. There are fewer eyeballs on the flight deck and more ways to get caught. Just because there are fewer switches does not make the airplane easier to fly. Especially, when things start breaking and mother nature refuses to cooperate.

3 Likes
17

My statement was made in more general terms, rather than being about aviation, specifically. Obviously, with this being an aviation-based forum and my thread about aviation, I fully understand your conclusion about my statement.

It might take me hours and hours to program a computerized musical sequencing program to play a symphony across synthesizers connected via MIDI, but there’s no way that is going to be anything like sitting in a music hall and observing and listening to a live orchestra performing the same piece.

Driving a modern car with an automatic transmission with cruise control that can manage car-to-car distance, braking and lane keeping management is beyond boring to me vs. managing the gear selection and operating the car myself.

I was thinking more in those terms.

You’re right, though, and in my ignorance of how modern aviation is managed and performed it is easy for me to generalize here.

I’ve watched videos of a modern latest-generation 747 flight crew going through the same motions as the B-17 crew and it wasn’t anything as interesting as the B-17. I don’t doubt the level of training is less, but the actual event certainly wasn’t as interesting to me. Sure, in an emergency everything changes.

To bring it back to MSFS, I suppose I have the luxury of enjoying the vintage. I’m going to walk away from flying into a mountain in IMC and I can do stupid things like fly an aircraft not certified for icing conditions over the Sierra Nevada in a storm just to see how it will work out.

I don’t want to come across as someone who doesn’t appreciate all that technology has brought us, nor do I want to come across as having no respect for the flight crews that fly today’s aircraft. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I’m a living breathing paradox. I worked in technology companies, but also worked in vintage sports and racing car restoration. I engineer, design and fabricate electronic modules to fit modern powerplants into vintage automobiles. Like my opening statement said, I’m a crossover of both eras and I value each of them.

In the sim, though, I love the old aircraft, how they are operated and I’m keen to understand how it was all done from the purpose of entertainment and mind expansion.

Thanks for enlightening me from your perspective. I crave learning and new information and you’ve helped me see things differently and I highly value that.

3 Likes
18

I apologize if my remarks sounded a little preachy. You are clearly someone who is interested in aviation and I am a professional aviation educator. As such I see an opportunity to expand someone’s horizons I find it hard to resist. I appreciate you acknowledging my pontifications in the manner they were presented.

That being stated I would love the opportunity to fly a real-world D-17 Staggerwing. Not because the airplane is better than the King Air, but for the nostalgia that flying a dope canvas business piston would provide. I also understand that I would be a neophyte in such an airplane and anyone who owns one of these flying pieces of history would never allow me near the controls. :rofl: The same with the Beechcraft 2000 Starship. I think there will always be that allure to the rare and old at the hearts of some aviation aficionados.

I think you also hit the nail on the head when talking about commercial pilots. Doing it for fun and doing it for a living is a huge difference.

1 Like
19

None needed. I meant it, I’m appreciative of your knowledge and perspective. There is only so much I can learn/understand on my own without the input of others.

Great minds think alike!

I’m so thankful for the opportunity to have the D-17 in the sim. I’m hoping we see a quality Starship. Both of those are high on my list of favorites.

20

She used to have her license many years ago. However, after her husband was tragically killed in a flying accident about 30 years ago she let her license lapse. But still: I also thought it was impressive, even for someone with 500+ hours, to pick this up again.

2 Likes