Seems like this thread is also spiraling out of control at the moment 
. Look up the difference between a spin and spiral dive and report back 
The TOPIC of this thread is “you have to be a rw pilot to make ANY assumptions about the FMs”… NOT true.
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At least i know how to follow a thread topic…
I’m a troll because i follow the topic of conversation and provide valid proof to a fact/ observation?
I am a full-time professional pilot walmost 10,000 hours of flight time. Flight models of all the sim aircraft I have flown are excellent (many of which I have time IRL). No feel of course but the camera head bob system provides subtle but valuable feedback on control inputs that helps with overcontrolling, without being intrusive. Really nice job on the flight models. And of course the aircraft and scenery look great.
I had hoped the ATC system would be more realistic (I was a controller for 10 years).
I had especially hoped the ARiNC coding impimentation in the FMSs would be realistic. I can get on final, but the transitions, many of which are missing, do not match the real world plates, not even close. This makes it useless for IFR practice. I hope this is a priority to fix. For now I am definitely haning on to X-Plane/Navigraph for IFR practice.
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Personally I prefer a fellow sim-only pilot’s review that is supplemented by information from a real pilot. What I’ve experienced in sims is that real pilots tend to often say “it’s close enough” or “it’s very close” and they say this with every generation of sim.
I suspect they say this because they know the sim can never be the real thing, and they have access to the real thing, so it’s not as important for them to critique a game into being more realistic. A sim-only pilot may never get to experience the real thing so he wants to push the developer to code as much realism as humanly possible into the sim.
You wouldn’t fly a helo upside down in real life? So what? Let’s code it correctly and get a feel for what would happen in real life theoguh the sim. Because fun.
real pilot input is very valuable, and necessary. But so is the input from the simmer who has the drive to push the consumer product further along
Edit: for example I see pilot after pilot saying the flight models are great, but I’ve yet to see anyone mention the lack of wing stalls. If you’re flying a 152 at 100 knots and bank then pull fully back on the yoke, in game you just turn no problem but I have to imagine in reality there’d be buffeting and a wing stall really quickly. The real pilot may say you’d never be so reckless with the controls of the 152,but that’s because he’s already a pilot. Someone who is a simmer only may think the Cessna turns like an f16 and be taught via sim bad impressions of flight dynamics
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I have already posted a message on another topic but this one seems to be more appropriate.
so…
hello,
thanks for this new game. very good to fly VFR. first time i can do it in a game. fantastic!!!
As a Da40 TDI private pilot, i would like to ask for systems that are not yet implementd in the game:
- FUEL TRANS (switch moves but does nothing) IRL it should transfer fuel from the right to the left tank (60US agl/h). in case of a failure of the FUEL TRANS you must engage the EMERGENCY TRANSFER (18 to 21 US gal/h in that case)
- ECU test (swith moves but does nothing) whan pressing this bouton for 1 minute approximatly it should engage a test sequence on the engine and the propeller (you can easyly hear that when testing on the ground before takeoff)
- ECU TEST buton (moves but does nothing). you should be able to feel (to hear) a light change when passing from ECU A to B. test that you do on normal procedure before takeoff.
- CT (cooling TEMP) on the CED (compact Engine display) is increasing in the orange range very soon (as soon as you are in initial climb) and seems to be stuck in orange after that. does not behave that way IRL.
it would be very nice if you can implemente all that systems.
Very convinient game for training (normal and maybe later abnormals procedures)
thanks
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It’s hard to code for what would happen in real life in a given aircraft, if the maneuver you are trying to perform cannot be performed in the actual aircraft. I have seen a lot of posts in this thread about maneuvers that are prohibited. They are prohibited in the real aircraft because they are beyond the aerodynamic design/safety envelope.
During my flight training IRL I have logged certified sim time, as well as hours in the aircraft and simming at home all the while. One of the most useful statements my instructor said about simming, is to treat the sim like the real aircraft. in other words, don’t try to perform maneuvers in the sim that the actual aircraft is not rated to perform.
When you are sitting in an actual aircraft you get so much feedback from the movement sensations your inner ear is conveying. You don’t look at the gauges in GA flight nearly as much as you do in a simulator. Vice versa, in the sim you don’t have the inner ear sensations so you focus more on the gauges and the numbers.
Every simulator has its strengths and weaknesses. One will always do X better and the other Y.
Just like you have some of the aircraft in the current release that real world pilots are saying are spot on, and others not so much.
I only have experience in a few GA aircraft and helicopters, so I have zero input on the realism of the airliners, etc. I can say, that the C152, C172 feel really close to what I have experienced. The immersion of the world around you also has a huge impact on the sense of realism.
So, as technology improves and the simulation looks more like true VFR, GA flying, each iteration of sim is going to feel more realistic to those real world pilots. Maybe not so much for airliners and jets since simulating them tends to be more about hitting the numbers than GA.
So for all of the real world pilots, keep reporting what feels off, and right, about the aircraft you know.
…and for all of the sim pilots that want to perform a maneuver in a sim aircraft that doesn’t have real world data to back it up, we will never know how close to reality the sim is performing.
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The ARINC 424 coded procedures are all there, but the airliner FMSs and the flight planner on the world map do not correctly use the available data.
As you know, many real-world STARs have multiple entry points to accommodate arrivals from different directions, but the airliner FMSs and flight planner will only provide one transition, and it always the one which appears first (alphabetically) in the nav data.
For example: the HLYWD ONE arrival at KLAX has entry transitions beginning at FNNDA, GABBL and ESTWD, but in MSFS, if you choose that arrival, the only available transition is ESTWD.
Likewise the CHSLY FOUR arrival at KCLT can be entered at COUPN, LYH or NUMMN, but if you select that arrival in the flight planner, it will automatically assign the COUPN transition, which is an absurd choice for aircraft arriving from the north, for which LYH would be the correct entry point.
A similar situation exists with SIDS that have multiple exit transitions. You will only get the option to choose the one that appears first alphabetically in the ARINC 424 database. Likewise for approach procedures that more than one IAF.
I have been able to use other available transitions, but only by using an external flight planner (PFPX), exporting the plan in PLN format, and loading it into MSFS when on the world map screen.
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This post sort of illustrates my point. You’re a pilot with access to a real plane and a flight instructor. He says fly the sim like a real plane. Well how would a sim only pilot understand how to pilot like a real plane if the sim has a bunch of arcadey elements to it? Simmers want fidelity in the difficult to code areas so there’s piece of mind that the basic flight is actually accurate. Why else spend all this money on this hobby? Why do this instead of ace combat?
I hop into an extra 300 and do aileron rolls and can’t for the life of me arrest the inertia crisply like I see on videos of real pilots, so I’m left wondering “is it me? Is it my setup? Is it the flight model?” So if the stunt plane can’t do basic stunt plane stuff, but real pilots are saying “eh it’s close enough” I get the opinion that you’re not as interested in fidelity as I am.
At this point, I don’t recall seeing any real world pilots saying that anything feels arcadey. There have been several statements on systems not being modeled entirely, or performance figures being a bit off.
There will always be debates on handling and realism because it’s impossible to simulate all of the variables. Not only due to limitations in computing, but also data collection from the real world.
The ASOS antenna on the SE corner of the airport cannot detect the channel of air that may be an effect of a surface thermal or wind corridor created by buildings downfield. So we rely on implementation techniques within the data collection process and software execution.
As far as what is limiting your experience with roll precision in an extra 300, you would need to seek out an instructor, either real world or sim, that has the experience to teach you. Aerobatics takes hours of instruction and even more hours of practice to achieve proficiency. Having real world experience in real aircraft, I can say that I would never expect to be able to perform any maneuver I don’t have experience in without the guidance of someone more experienced.
I feel that in my experience with sims, from IL2, FS2002 & X-plane to DCS and many others, MSFS has launched with a better head start on realism than any other sim I have flown out of the box. I know all of the DCS hardcore fans will be upset about that statement, but while I find the systems simulations in DCS to be second to none, the actual handling of the aircraft feels closer to what I have experienced in real life with MSFS.
Some real world pilots may be indifferent as you say, but others are absolutely invested in the highest fidelity that can be achieved in a sim. I am one of them. More of us will say “it’s close” rather than “it’s close enough”. I myself will continue to give any feedback that I can, but it will probably be more useful once helicopters make it into the sim since that is where I have the most real world experience.
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I assume you mean wingdip? Haven’t honestly tried that in FS2020, I’m curious now if it dips during stall in turns or reacts to P-factor during stall on a single engine piston. By the way this part of normal flight training so a real life pilot would know what it feels like.
You have to know that any comment concerning the flight model is very subjective (real pilot or not), I don’t know exactly how much value a simulator pilots comments on the flight model would be, he has to compare it to what? X-plane, P3D or FSX? I don’t think a real life pilots comments would be biased since he has access to the real thing.
Also please know from all the level D sims I have flown in my flight career, some of them also (again subjective) don’t do a good job simulating the real aircraft and those are certified Level D simulators with the real aircrafts control colums, giving the same control column deflection and stick force opposed to your joystick at home. So don’t expect the FS2020 to become 100% accurate, its a good aim of course.
Regarding your procedures outside the certified flight envelope, yes no real pilot has been there (I hope) and other than a test pilot for that particular aircraft nobody can say something usefull about those areas of the flight envelope, not a real life pilot nor a simulator pilot.
Being a CPL pilot in training, I can confirm many of the GA aircraft are actually pretty decent in regards to their flight models! I think the 40 feels a little bit underpowered still but that’s just my bias XD
I’m very impressed that they managed to get the aerodynamics to the point of being able to do an accurate spin. Pretty good! Nice to do some spin and spiral training without the G’s IRL
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I’m wondering if anyone else has noticed the same or if its just me. If I’m using a pitch setting on approach which feels natural to me based on real life experience I’m decending with 1000 ft/min RoD. I’m not sure if it has to do with the eye reference being different or if most of the planes requiring more nose up pitch compared to real life.
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I feel as though my initial point has been demonstrated multiple times already but two different pilots. Here you say that real sims (level D?) which were made for pilots and with only pilot and engineer input are actually not very good at simulating the aircraft. But the commercial products (MSFS2020, DCS) which are designed for maximum fidelity toward a general audience are actually better. This is because of an intrinsic difference between general audience and pilots: Pilots have the real thing to go experience, general audience does not. Pilots will in general not be as interested in the fidelity of a video game because they can go experience the real thing. Most people however will not experience being a pilot for various reasons and so they push for more and more realism out of commercial programs. It’s the simmer that pushes product sales and gets better quality flight sticks and throttles into the market. It’s the simmer that gets intricate rudder pedals and collectives made by boutique companies who see a niche market.
Again I’m not saying pilot input is bad. I said before that pilot input is absolutely necessary. But I think it is silly to pretend that the simmer’s input has no bearing here, that I can’t watch a pilot operate an extra 300 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q0yzdIUUt8) and observe her flight stick movements during aileron rolls, then go to MSFS2020 and try to duplicate it but the plane doesn’t behave similarly. As a simmer I’m fine with posing the question “Is this flight model accurate? Can we get the devs to look into it?” etc, but I see many real pilots here just content to say “well it’s close.”
That’s the difference in why I want an input from a simmer because they don’t have access to the real thing and so they are really driven to see the sim/game reach an ever improving quality.
Edit: Start at 40 seconds: https://youtu.be/CoPan1hid4c?t=40 and watch the flight stick. Not only can you not do such a crisp aileron roll in msfs2020, you also can’t do this type of inverted loop (outside loop?) in msfs2020.
Edit 2: Wanted to correct myself, I was able to do an outside loop in the E300 over Sedona today. It’s quite finicky but once I completed it it did seem to match the careful precision of the video I saw. But I’m still of the impression that there is a lag in the aileron roll stability (not sure how else to word it).
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@Di4lectic
I can tell you that it is no fun, hopping into a Level D sim for your checkflight and you over-rotate into the stall warning on your first takeoff because it’s doesn’t even remotely require the forces of the real aircraft.
In many cases it takes you a few minutes to get used to the different feel of the sim.
It’s not about what pilots like or require (it would be much more realistic if the sim would resemble the aircraft you are flying IRL), it’s the simple fact that those expensice Level-D sims are only expensive procedure trainers.
I always feel sorry for the airmchair pilots who spend hundreds and thousands of dollar to ‘fly’ Level-D sims any they believe that the real aircraft feels as sluggish and spongy as the sim.
Especially flying visual patterns is pretty unrealistc because the motion always lags a tiny bit behind the visuals and this together with the sluggish hydraulics results in a ‘flying’ experience which is usually noticeable less precise than twith the real aircraft and a rather ‘spongy’ aircraft response.
Btw, that’s the beauty of VR. No motion = no lag.
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I just did a Nav few hours ago, and started the game while the feel still fresh
for 172SP-classic
- The rudder is wrong, I even need some left rudder to keep the plane straight when take off. which should be somewhere 20~40% right rudder
- Climb power too weak, I do 80 knot and VS around 800~900 headwind while in game 300~800 jumping inconsistence in same condition.
- Landing feels about right but IRL it feels heavier and sink a bit more quicker
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“That’s the difference in why I want an input from a simmer because they don’t have access to the real thing and so they are really driven to see the sim/game reach an ever improving quality.”
I still don’t get your point here, what can a flight simulator pilot say about the accuracy of a flight model without having real life experience? A flight sim pilot can only compare similiar aircraft across different platforms, how usefull is that gonna be?
I think all of us, also “us” real pilots are pushing for the best flight model possible. But I also believe real pilots understand that this might be a somewhat unrealistic goal, even a multi-milion dollar Level D simulator with full motion, the real aircrafts equipment etc. doesn’t always do a good job simulating the real aircraft and those are FAA / EASA certified for pilot training. To be clear I didn’t state FS2020, X-plane, DCS etc. are better than a Level-D simulator, the worst Level D simulator flight model is still vastly better than any home simulator. Also, Level-D simulators are not simply based on subjective inputs from pilots and engineers as you are suggesting, they are based input / output response curves (QTGs) based on the real aircraft. Pilots and engineers don’t have any influence on how the simulator behaves or feels, you can’t really tell the simulator manufacturer make it more sensitive in pitch or something. The assumption that a simulator designed for real flight training is based on pilot inputs and therefore less refined as they are less driven to improve quality is simply wrong.
At home your joystick / yoke does probably not have the same deflection and stick forces as the real aircrafts control column, and unless you have a fancy force feedback yoke the control forces are not increasing with increasing airspeed as happens in a real (conventional) aircraft and the sensation of flying is missing at home behind your computer. What I’m trying to say here, its unrealistic to think FS2020 is ever gonna mimic the real aircraft with 100% realism, no simulator can match the real deal, of course we should strive for the most realistic flight model.
Then the question, does it really matter? A realistic flight model is part of and probably the basis of a realistic flight simulator, but even with it never being able to 100% simulate real flight, it is fun to fly from your computer, and it is good enough for people wanting to become pilots to practise the basics of flight and train the cognitive aspects of flying. It might give you an advantage during real flight training. I say might because it is also very possible to learn wrong habits and scan patterns which are later difficult to “unlearn”. I’ve been a flight instructor for years and I know first hand that people with a lot of flight simulator experience may have a lot of difficulty learning how to properly operate an aircraft compared to someone starting “clean slate”.
I’m a captain on the ATR and Embraer myself and in both type ratings X-plane has helped me a lot in practising the location of switches, scan patterns, flows, procedures etc. Although the flight models were really disappointing, I hope FS2020 is the first simulator which is gonna live up to my expectations from the flight model side. As I said before, I feel like the FS2020 flight model is the best I’ve seen so far in any flight simulator, no its not perfect and maybe too sensitive but it does respond to the environment, terrain, weather etc. I think thats a leap from what we have seen so far. Sure there is room for improvement but there definitely is potential.
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Just out of curiosity, what does headwind have to do with your climb statement? Headwind is not gonna affect your rate of climb, it only affects the climb angle / gradient…
About having to use left rudder during take-off, I haven’t had the same experience so far yet, maybe it was X-wind? Do you mean its 20 -40% rudder deflection in the real plane? That sounds much to me.
Dear “AUOSILVER” don’t you think that cirrus is a little bit sensitive once airborne, in comparison with the real aircraft. I have around 400 hours in Cirrus SR22 and I found that in MSFS is very sensitive (I don’t know if I made something wrong on settings).