Replace the atmosphere parameters with more accurate ones from ARPC

Regarding the Sunsets & Sunrises,

Here in Norway, I live in a coastal area :blush:

and, I have seen many spectacular Sunsets & Sunrises similar to Florida and other Tropical areas!

So if the sim has a bit of purple and pink, it is okay IF the weather conditions “call for it”!

Many times this happens after a weather shift and a bit of high upper winds after some rain if we then get Cirrus/cirrostratus you better be be prepared for some FANTASTIC Sun-Set/Sun-Rise :grinning_face: :grinning_face: :grinning_face: :star_struck: :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

Especially during spring until late Autumn, but we also have a lot of rain/dreary weather meanwhile.. :joy:

This Tropical/pink/purple “should be” controlled by weather conditions and nothing else..It should be random’ish (“but not err” on dramatic or boring)
That would still give pleasant sunrises and sunsets, but it would also give realistic toned down "blue boring sunrise* or just a regular yellow toned sunset when it IS OVERCAST.

BTW I really DO MISS (high clouds) Cirrus/Stratus, which is paramount for these kind of really Beatifull sightings..

So I hope if implemented it gets PROPERLY implemented.

But I really have to thank Biology for his work towards this as a improved feature. :smiley: :smiley: :+1: :smiling_face_with_three_hearts: :star_struck:

Most definitely, but it also has a fair bit of purple, especially up in the corners, that I would argue should be there.

And I’d also argue that Biology’s screenshot:

…is actually missing a lot of purple that we routinely get here. The Belt of Venus, for example (right side on the Biology screenshot) usually has a lot of pink and purple in it, yet is still blue to neutral grey there.

That’s not my photo, but I was intentionally noting the colors on last night’s walk, and the color bands just above Earth’s shadow were indeed purple. I’m guessing Biology’s model might be an idealized “clean” atmosphere, and we’ve got a lot of smoke and other particulate in play here.

If you’re anything like me, you’ve spent years walking around studying the sky. To me your photo is the pink and blue that Iwas referring to - a bit more intense than Ive ever seen but thats the colors. They change with conditions of course. Another thing about the sim that can be seen in ‘Biologys shot’ – why is there an apparent light source for the right half of that image? No matter the time of day or location, the top middle of what you see is darkest. Maybe its not present at high altitudes?
but also note that Biologys shot with the Earths shadow looks right to me - Ive seen it a lot. I think the bluegreen, pink and blue would occur at about the midpoint of Biolgys image or away from the sun earlier in the sunset. and theres too much yellow in that shot.
Heres a clip from the ‘noClip’ video that showed how MSFS was made showing a more realistic amount of yellow with haze shifting down the hue:

That looks pretty normal, as there’s less light being scattered back to you when looking straight up as you’re looking through the thinnest part of the atmosphere.

Googling Belt of Venus, you can see how much pink and purple shows up in the photos:

Perhaps folks are mostly noticing and photographing this feature when there is pink and purple present, and again it’s probably just dependent on other atmospheric conditions where Biology’s model might be an idealized case. Still, the simulator struggles with drawing distant clouds and may be incapable of bouncing the red light over long distances like that, or accurately injecting the particulate composition in Live Weather. So some kind of compromise to artificially colorize the sunset is probably needed. Or at the very least, there should be a weather preset for colorful sunsets in which these coefficients and the particulate type is tweaked.

I can’t tell if we’re talking past one another or not. What you call “pink and purple”, I see as “pink and blue” and, yes, it is very common. Its the earlier phase of a sunset when the Earths shadow is just making it’s presence known. It’ll continue to darken and lose its color contrast as light fades. I’m not saying Biology’s picture is perfection - theres no such thing – just that I think its closer to reality. As for light sources, the sun is setting (has set for the Earths shadow to be up that high) and the arc of light should be different in that pic in my opinion as the sun acts like a giant flashlight. But feel free to disagree.

One thing that doesn’t seem to be discussed much is how photos can be really poor for using in comparison work.
ISO, shutter speed, aperture size and white balance can all significantly alter the image from what the eye sees and that’s before you take into account any post processing of the photo.

The other thing is that people’s preferences are going to play a big part in how the new sky colours are received. With different environmental factors having an effect on the types of sky colours seen I.R.L., perhaps we need a handful of presets in the sim to allow people to select their favourite.

This is SO true :+1:, having dabbled in amature-photography for short while and used a D-SLR Canon EOS-30D, this can’t be discounted in comparison pictures, but it’s at the least better than nothing when we compare.. :blush:

Some cameras even have a ‘Sunset Mode’ to produce artificially vibrant photos like this!

I’m a big advocate for users having graphical options for things like this so they can make their own choice, maybe we could have 3 options:

  • ‘Sunset Mode’ (as it is now)
  • ‘Pretty Mode’ (half way between)
  • ‘Realistic Mode’ (the new values)

Because it’s ultimately only changing 6 numerical values, it should be really easy to implement a graphical option for choosing :slight_smile:

Yes, if we need to have preset-based, and it CAN’T BE dynamic based on weather/condition/season. That would be a good workaround/solution “for the issue” :+1::blush:

But we should not settle for ONLY the realistic sunset/sunrise type, but a random mix atleast.. IF we can ONLY have 1 type all the time..

I hate predictable weather in a sim, weather is usaually not predictable :joy: makes it a bit more fun realistic in the sim.

(EDIT: Added “dynamic” based, I knew there was a better word for it, Thanks F737NG)

I agree, this was also mentioned this earlier in the thread, always dull sunsets would be just as bad (worse in my opinion) as being always vibrant:

I think having the variety is very important!

Citing myself, there is always someone enjoying the status quo, so make such changes simply configurable and everyone will be happy.

I’d much rather prefer if sky colours were dynamic. Though presets/options are far more acceptable than a static sky presenting one colour set only.

Can only assume, yet I feel that the completely purple/violet or completely orange sky at dawn and dusk is considered too extreme for a lot of people. Hence the overwhelming response on this particular wishlist.

I see $10years as a variable, to which we can assign an arbitrary value that hopefully just keeps increasing. :slight_smile:

Hi, that’s a really nice opportunity to talk about why it’s not a deliberate choice and the history of atmospheric scattering papers.

One of the very first papers about atmospheric scattering is Nishita’s paper in 1995, which was spectrally rendered but only included single scattering and didn’t model ozone. One paper in early 2000s (I can’t find it for some reason, will update here when I find it) which was based on Nishita’s paper made it real-time by instead of rendering the atmosphere spectrally, rendering it in RGB by picking a single wavelength for red, green and blue. In the paper 680 nm for red, 550 nm for green and 440 nm for blue. Other than that it was the same as Nishita’s paper which means it also didn’t model ozone absorption. Based on their experiments, it was close enough to the spectrally rendered reference. But again, they didn’t model ozone absorption which will be significant in a moment.

As Rayleigh scattering coefficients change monotonically with wavelength, this approximation was likely good enough. The issue began when the following papers such as Hillaire’s, directly used the same wavelengths but started to take ozone absorption into account. Unlike Rayleigh scattering coefficients, ozone absorption coefficients don’t change monotonically with wavelength and they change much faster too. This means 3 wavelengths are simply not enough anymore and the rendered results are not accurate.

MSFS, XP12 etc. all reused the same coefficients as is from these papers, they did not calculate them on their own, so it certainly wasn’t deliberate as the coefficients weren’t even chosen by them.

Either case, instead of looking at photos which might have a completely wrong white balance and an unrealistic post-processing, comparing the results rendered in RGB to the spectrally rendered results makes more sense. In other words, the spectrally rendered results are the ground truth and any deviation from them is an inaccuracy, even if it still looks like something that could happen in real life by coincidence. If you compare the results from the original coefficients and the ones from ARPC, you will see that the results from the original coefficients deviate a lot from the spectrally rendered ground truth meanwhile the ones from ARPC are often within 1%. Be noted that I’m not saying photos cannot be a valid reference, they without a doubt can, but they can be also completely off depending on the white balance and post-procesing which means they’re only a valid reference when they’re confirmed by the person who took the photos that they indeed looked like that in real life.

Also it appears that your comparison is from an early sunset, while the discrepancy is most obvious during later sunset, where atmosphere turns into deep blue with a slight hint of purple in real life while a complete purple in the simulator.

One impotant thing is that those photos are all zooming into the Venus’ belt which indeed has a pink / purple color and not showing rest of the sky, the issue in MSFS is that the entire sky turns into purple, which is rare in real life and requires specific conditions. Such purple skies shouldn’t appear in the model as it assumes as a clear sky with no aerosols other than water wapor and no pollutants, which means the parameters are inaccurate as the results don’t reflect the conditions the model assumes. The sky indeed can look purple in real life, but this look should achieved by adding the required conditions to the model instead of starting with a completely inaccurate base, which can be seen by comparing it to a spectrally rendered reference.

Here’s a comparison zoomed into the Venus’ belt, the pink is present with the ARPC coefficients as well.

Default coefficients:

ARPC coefficients:

That looks a lot better, thanks. That pink/purple band was seemingly missing from some of the other screenshots.

That’s my bad, I wanted to fit most of the sky into the comparison and for that I increased the FOV a lot, to the degree that Venus’ belt ended up looking too small.

Another quick question.

Why wouldn’t it be possible to implement this into our own sims?

Our own sims? As in a different sim or implementing it to MSFS ourselves?

cuz the variables are not exposed for us to edit.