So…to be fun, drive everyone crazy and get technical…
This isn’t a ground effect problem. Asobo seems to actually understand GE and it’s working better in 2024 than it was in 2020.
…and technically they did fix the bug that was causing a massive boost in lift and spike in yaw when the FM switched between surfaces. Another user pointed out that the effect strength was related to how high the elevated pad was, but I didn’t test to confirm.
This is an issue with how the FM is handling the downwash and inflow around objects. It may be a limitation of the way that the model is implemented. The visualization may also not be showing the entirety of the model in this situation.
Most of the observations here in this thread align with my experience. SU1B1 solved one significant problem, but there is room to improve the simulation.
The XP12 example at the end of the video is more inline with how the disk should interact with the pad edge.
They did fix the specific bug but the GE effect seems to work as a toggle, it is either on or off. We can debate weather this is a bug or a limitation of the flight model but it makes certain precision flying, such as the landing on the truck, way harder than it should be IMO.
Sums up my tldr posts and my thinking perfectly, thanks for that
I flew some career missions and free flights last weekend and overall the beta makes the experience way more enjoyable and fun
But the problems of this post are there and the yaw spike bug is also not completely gone. It happens very, very rarely but I had it happened to me on both the oil rig platform as well as the truck. It’s just a momentary loss of yaw control for a split second, no excessive lift, but it is there nonetheless.
Let’s leave if at that. Hopefully, the devs decide to put resources on this. Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts and opinions. Let’s move on.
I have no clue how accurate the flying physics are in MSFS 2024 helicopters, only that it is the first time I have really tried to fly them and my major problem is that I expect and acknowledge the ground effect lift but I have no idea how to control rotor speed accurately with the setup I have. I am always overshooting or undershooting the values. I have a CH flight yoke with a throttle control on it and it is mapped to the throttle axis 0 - 100% which seemed logical. However, if you do that there seems to be no way to trim the values with any other control since the stick will always match the CH throttle position. Any ideas on what the best control mapping is for helicopters?
Well, your topic was fascinating and, from everything I read and watched, Asobo certainly needs to do some work. The reason I replied in here is that for me to truly experience this bug and see the improvements, I have to be able to keep the helicopter basically stable over helipads, something that is daunting to me right now. It’s hard for me to be able to ascertain what is a bug and what is simply something I can deal with by having more responsive controls. I’ll send you a private message.
We want to keep this on topic to the handling issue at hand.
I agree this needs to be worked on. I just think it may need to be redefined and logged as a different bug. The feedback snapshot is showing the helicopter pad GE bug as fixed. Whatever was happening that was causing the sharp on/off cushion and yaw has been greatly reduced, but the inflow and downwash is still not interacting with objects and surfaces correctly. It’s still an all or nothing phenomena.
edit: XP has a CFD visualization feature as well. I’ll look into comparing the two sims insitu in the next few days.
If it helps and if the forum interface allows it I’d be happy to change the title or part of my post… I think that would also help any dev to have a summation(?)
The XP12 FM visualization doesn’t show how the airflow interacts with the ground or any object. It’s more of a simplified display of how the lifting surface is performing. So it only shows performance of the disk as a whole.
Seb’s explanation in the developers’ stream yesterday confirms that this is a limitation of the model. He directly stated that the CFD only interacts with one ground plane and that it’s to much of an impact on performance to add more. So it’s samples multiple surfaces and averages to fix the problem we were having.
This means they are going to have to approach fixing this behavior in a different way. Although it is much better in the SU1B1/2, it is not behaving as a real helicopter would.
If you use real world procedures, you can avoid the envelope where this is a concern, but the sim is not going to bite you like it would in the real world if you don’t follow correct procedures.
That works for an elevated platform, but what about the ag refill truck, for instance? I’m not a pilot, but common sense tells me that such a thing should not have the GE on a magnitude we experience in the sim, simply due to its small size relative to the rotor disc area. Especially with the center of the rotor disc right above the platform, one would think the center does not generate a lot of downwash due to the low airspeed, and the fuselage below it.
I fly helicopters in life but I’ve never landed on a platform or pinnacle. I’ve found that aerodynamic features (ground effect and VRS) in helicopter sims are generally too perfect and fail to consider the random, arbitrary nature of real air and real earth. So, to me, what we have now is acceptable and on par with X-Plane. My issue with the spray truck is not ground effect. I hardly notice it now. Rather it is with the placement of the truck itself and with the nutty level of dust, especially in the R66.
Yeah, the dust is way over done… @pvaiko1203 it’s hopefully not the final solution. and you should still approach the truck from above, not crossing the edge if it can be helped. In the real thing you try to avoid all of the situations that cause increased pilot workload. I know it’s not the best answer, and we still want the edge cases of the envelope simulated…but at least it’s functional now.
From a simming standpoint, you want everything simulated as close to reality as possible because it’s the full experience.
From a pilot’s real world training point of view, it doesn’t make a difference whether those edge cases are simulated, or just cause the flight to end. There isn’t anything you can learn from the sim that will help you in the real aircraft. You can learn bad habits though.
That’s a great video.
He’s approaching the truck from above for every refill. It doesn’t have to be from a much higher height. Just enough to make the approaching angle keep the inflow bubble away from the edge.
Those are either the laziest takeoffs, or he’s lacking TR authority with the added weight of the load. He’s dumping the cyclic forward to get into ETL as soon as possible to accelerate and gain that lift efficiency. He’s way out of trim, though, until he picks up enough speed and the heli comes back in trim without TR input.
You can see the helicopter sink and settle about ~6-7’ above the field. You wouldn’t get much from GE above a field with tall plants like that anyway. You can really feel the difference in the cushion when you are just hovering at an airport and you transition from above the tarmac to grass. The heli sinks a bit and the control response becomes a bit ‘softer’ or ‘mushier’.
At 40 knots, spraying 6-7’ above the field you wouldn’t be considering GE anyway.
I guess the correct approach is from above as shown in the video, although it’s quite challenging due to low visibility. I feel better if I approach horizontally, is this considered ok in real piloting?
Your question is quite off topic, contact me personally via direct message if you like.
