The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly - 2 FPS Unacceptable

Bug Reporting Hub Install, Performance & Graphics
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Recently I posted an analysis of the stuttering problem many people are having. Another major problem some people have happens during flight at random locations, FPS drops so low it looks like a slide show. The reply from Zendesk recommended changing LOD to 80. Is this a good workaround? Fortunately there is one location, 76T, where the FPS craters repeatedly. I flew into 76T twice while capturing frame rates using a tool from NVIDIA. The first flight was at LOD 150, the second at LOD 80. I created two charts and sent them into Zendesk. I am posting them here to provide some insight into one of the major performance problems. NOTE: These measurements did not use the developers FPS counter. No comparison should be made.

The first chart shows frame rates before the FPS drop. The black line shows FPS using LOD 150. The yellow line shows FPS using LOD 80. The good news is that changing the LOD to 80 improves the FPS a little and decreases random stutters. The random stutters at LOD 150 are indicated by the drop in FPS. These stutters are not part of the major stuttering problem. The FPS at LOD 80 is smoother than at LOD 150.

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The second chart shows the FPS when the FPS drops to about 2 FPS like a slide show. The FPS is significantly lower than the FPS in the first chart. Again, two FPS captures were taken, one at LOD 150 and the other at LOD 80. There is a slight difference between the two. However, it is very clear that LOD 80 does not temporarily “fix” this problem.

When I first saw this chart, the sawtooth up and down of the FPS looked strange. Looking at the raw data I found a repeating cyclical pattern of the amount of time between frames coming into the GPU. The cycle showed that for every two frames, one would have a very long delay time and the other would have a shorter delay time. Up and down over and over.

The AVERAGE frame counts during these captures were about 2.2 FPS. This is where “average” is misleading because it doesn’t show the repeating up and down of the frames. The up and down frames show that something in the “main thread” is broken, feeding frames to the GPU as the chart shows. There is no information about exactly what is broken. Whatever it is, changing the LOD doesn’t “fix” it.

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Thank you to everyone who posted the problem at 76T and other locations. Repeatability is key! The information presented here would not be possible if this problem couldn’t be recreated.

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Super interesting… nice work!

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did you also try at LOD 100?

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I did not try LOD @ 100. I guess results would be somewhere between the two I used. I think someone posted seeing a huge difference between LOD 100 and LOD 80. Visually there may be a dramatic difference. The only difference I could see were the occasional stutters at LOD 150. And what each user sees is highly dependent on hardware, graphics settings, and aircraft location.

The charts only measure frame rates, not what each user actually sees. (Quantitative vs. Qualitative or subjective)

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and what changes this information ? how usefull is this within the issue category ?

The dev-team check these issue already and we not need million threads for same…

That lowering LOD increase the FPS is nothing new, in special in case 4K with a 2080Ti.
That it can not avoid the stuttering issue is also well known. May be the support mixed “low fps” with “stutter” issue ( possible you too ).

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It shows that it isn’t a performance problem. Also, the reports of 2-10 FPS are not accurate because an AVERAGE FPS is reported. Actually, the FPS oscillates every two frames between a minimum of 1.5 FPS and a maximum of 23 FPS. The key is the oscillation.

The dev-team states that they are “monitoring and investigating “. I’m just trying to help with the investigation. None of the threads have presented or discussed the oscillation of the FPS.

I reported a memory leak with very low FPS to ZenDesk. ZenDesk response was to use a lower LOD of 80. Of course lowering LOD to 80 improves FPS. No one has ever stated how much FPS improvement there is changing LOD. These charts show how much improvement there is. The charts also show that lowering the LOD is not a workaround or help in any manner. Maybe ZenDesk will stop publishing untested workarounds.

I have submitted diffent documentation about the stuttering problem showing that it is not a performance problem.

According to the March 16, 2021 Known Issues list, only four are listed. Performance is one of them. FPS drops, stuttering, and crashes are all in the “Performance” issue. They state “we have numerous optimization updates planned for the near future.” Yes, they’ve mixed “low FPS” with “stutter” issue. I have not.

There are many posts describing that the FPS problem makes MSFS unusable. This is not a performance problem. It is a reliability problem.

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I believe I understand what you want to say… but these category is described as

Performance, Graphics & CTDs

This section is dedicated to performance and graphics (e.g. CTDs, framerate, download and installation issues)

thus it includes also issues like Pauses, Stutters, etc.

All the behavior is already reported and what we need are big threads with many many votes and not 100 small threads with very low votes :slight_smile:

Also lot of users mix the three topics… Here is as example a thread with similar heading like yours where I also mentioned it:

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I would have used a “Code” category if there was one. “Miscellaneous” maybe should be “None of the above”. The moderators can move my posting if I made an error.

I’ve been seeing posts where any type of “performance” issue or question is lumped into the performance problems from the last update. Multiple topics are needed here because there is a belief that there is only one performance problem (all issues are a subset of the whole) and there will be only one fix. The only thing Asobo has said is “we have numerous optimization updates planned for the near future.” I have no confidence when two vague phrases are cobbled together to make an important delivery commitment to users.

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Dont mind my run ons, I am not content. I am no longer satisfied . Cant believe this, and I am not playing with my settings, lasso or anything, this Simulator should run like it did prior today , at 12:52 am EST, I just closed out the simulator and said well, let me jump on this forum and check out if I am alone. Like I said , am dissapointed, and feeling well out of sorts. Please read. …
I also sent this same message to micro-soft development team. Word for Word copied message,

FPS, running at same refresh rate of my monitor , with locked vertical sync. I never set my refresh rate higher , although my monitor max rate is 144. I always locked it at 60 . Now with the newer updates, I have to turn off vertical sync, set my monitors to run at 144 to fly even the smallest of aircraft, to at least hit 35 fps.

This is not right. My system spec’s are well beyond the average, running a 3080 Nvidia card, process is a 3950 on a Formula VIII mb. , both the processor and video card are water cooled by HYDROLUX including has two built in radiators, and temps never reach above 50, running this flight simulator. I was hitting 60 FPS on ULTRA prior to the update. Ohj my drives are well well suited for many types of programs. Believe me. I am not putting my spec’s on line but you get the point. I can do better if I had a 4K monitor, since my card demands that anyway in the 1080 max that I have may slow it down a little, but like I said prior the updates the were available , It took my fun time down to a punishment like experience. I wasnt upset about the icing up on the wings, I said ms and its affiliates will fix that, but I am not happy for sure with the FPS and it using less of what my card can offer. i tried different FPS counters and they including the flight sims developer FPS show the same results, plus what the sim is not taking advantage of.

When they first advertised the release of the simulator, I ordered it way in advanced to it being released. However, I was sooo busy during the summer, I didnt have a chance to actually access the Microsoft Store to download it. I finally downloaded what I already paid for and believed was a good product to invest in and when I had the chance to download it. Then later run the package, it was fantastic, minus the over kill in ice build up. I was flying real weather in time. Buy I thought that was amazing anyway. Ice buildup, wow great compared to years ago. I did watch it melt away after I landed blind because my shields were soo covered in ice even with the defrosters on. I sat after I parked that baby, looked around in the â– â– â– â–  pit and said wow what a change since FS9 and prior. So some time later, after I turned off my PC, then came back to the sim, I mean days later, I had a moment to fly again, but guess what UPDATES. I was said well no problem. I accepted the downloads, that were in my content manager . Flew a little and noticed well bad hipcups. Basically horrible FPS, I did everything to see why. I later learned that I wasnt the only one, but more since I put time into trying to figure out the issue, I also noticed that the simulator unlike other softwares doesnt take advantage of the video cards such as mine 3080 and I am sure others who fly this simulator with great cards, and more experience this too.

Why, I am preminum to myself here (like the packaged i acquired from microsoft) but I am alone in the world and dont boast. I believe in my self , fault my own decisions and dont blame others, and nothing to prove. I dont ask for much , but i think the developers regardless if you are affiliated with others building this simulator should focus on not only providing better experience over large airports in particular areas of the world, but should fix the issue with the MSFS 2020 not utilizing a video cards potential, also , focus too on The USA graphics, such as Pennsylvania and other states having same issues as in other parts of the world that were addressed in the most recent update. MS, and its affiliates _____-------->You focused a lot on Europe , hmmm? But anyway the icing too needs fixing, but the software not using my card’s full potential including those that have 3090’s is bad. Not good. I am a patient person but not that patient. WELL anyway, especially when I found out the update I download tonight on 3-26-2021 was not what should had been. It should address the video card potential issue moreso, than anything else, and even more than other issues such as the icing issue. Please reply., msfs 2020 and its affiliates. I cant think straight now. I made an mistake???Or am I NOT being made aware that MS may be addressing this issue of FPS, multithreads and more in the next update. I am jumping the gun. I should get the same service , such as when I acquire a defective product from a hardware store. They immediately give me another… Then I use the replacement tool to get the job done. We/I need the same and better attention here. I dont get a patched up replacement tool, they give me a totally non defective replacement.

IF you microsoft and its affiliates that have anything to do with this simulator, PLEASE let me and others know what your plans are to address those video cards that can easily run this sim on ultra and at high frame rates , LIKE it did when I first downloaded it only a couple of months ago. But again, I was very early in reading up on the development of this sim, and before this sim even came out i volunteered to test this simulator. Funny this forum when I first tried to read up on things way back last year wasnt even open yet for comments. When the sim was open to purchase < I was first in line and acquired the preminum. But didnt download it until a couple months ago from my account in MS Store. I sat there, I was soo busy dealing with well alot of other things. Covid made it harder on the business I am in , so , I had to work harder just to stay afloat and didnt have time to deal with the sim. But in the back of my mind I couldnt wait . MOnths later I download it , and believe me FPS wasnt an issue. Those recent updates are killing me and other readings in this forum, I see from your forum members.

I am even a Gamepass member , and dont use it much , but I do I play golf i only play the newest available golf game out there on XBOX. I put money into Microsoft and monthly on top of that. YOU take my money. Dont you. So please at least tell us / all customers what your plans are on fixing the video card issue. I do have the best of the best new pc, (and no I didnt acquire this DSTORM system for the simulator) but it certainly should run it. without issue like it did prior to the updates. LIKE I SAID, I lock my V-sync to 60 fps, I think that is plenty. PRIOR TO the updates, it ran no less than 57 fps, anywhere and in any craft, at any airport I wanted to fly over, land at. it was wonderful. Oh the icing was well over whelming but I loved seeing the ice build up regardless, … I was amazed that after I landed the bird the ice melted because WOW the defrosters actually worked. MUCH better than previous versions I had. FS9 was great, but someone (not forum members) the developers, the business department and other departments need to address this issue or my investment in this sim was pointless if I cant enjoy it and have to spend time,---- complaining like this in this terribly constructed message,----- plus WASTING TIME looking for a not real fix just bandaids such as others use to address the fps problem (THIS SOFTWARE IS NOT MINE, IT SHOULD WORK LIKE PRIOR AND BETTER AS TIME GOES ON, I SHOULDNT NEED TO BE A DEVELOPER FIX AN ISSUE YOU (msoft) already is familiar with . Thats your job, … MY job is to pay for your product, and have fun flying, BUT not fixing it or patching it with applications (like lasso ) to make it run better. Playing with my Nvidia settings. (When I first played this sim, I did nothing to the Nvidia settings, I left it to the application ) I dont have that kind of time like I am spending now . Well helped me blow off steam. I am done. Micrsoft what is your objective. I need an answer. Thank you for your time and efforts if you do answer. YOUR honestly in making us aware of your future plans will be a big consideration to share. GOOD NIGHT, I CANT BELIEVE I PUT SOOOOO MUCH TIME INTO PUTTING THIS SCATTERED MESSAGE IN THIS FORUM. I SHOULD BE IN BED. ITS LATE, AND I AM DISSAPOINTED. I AM DONE DONE FOR NOW. PLEASE GIVE US A HEADS UP MICROSOFT AND ITS AFFILIATES. . THANK YOU.

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this post is so big, that the translator reject it :rofl:

and same post here :

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