In planes that use the default KAP 140 Autopilot (C207, C182 RG, C172) the autopilot is broken when re-engaging as follows:
create a new flight with or without a flight plan
take off, set the heading bug to straight ahead, level off and press AP on the KAP 140 panel using the mouse.
the KAP 140 engages properly showing HDG mode and ALT.
Now, press the AP button a second time to disengage.
Press the AP button a third time to re-engage. HDG and ALT flicker off. Pressing HDG/NAV seems to turn the plane, but there is no indication of mode on the KAP 140. You cannot enter VS mode by pressing ALT twice, or change the VS rate with the UP/DN buttons.
So you can use the KAP 140 exactly ONCE per flight. If you disengage the AP for any reason it stops working the remainder of the flight.
This affects several 3rd party planes as well as the default Asobo planes. I’ve cleared out all mods and it still happens.
I started debugging this with WBSim’s C172, then took the bug report to Working Title, however these developers do not implement or override anything with the default KAP 140.
3rd party planes that do implement their own KAP 140 (such as the WBSim C152, BlackSquare Analog C208, and the BlackBird 310R) all work as documented.
If this is reproducible, then it needs to be entered as a bug not a general discussion topic.
You said you “cleared out all mods”, but does that include removing the free Marketplace Working Title GNS 430/530 add-on? That is if you have it installed.
I ask, because it is a known “thing” that aircraft that still have the Asobo version of the GNS 430/530 and a KAP 140/150 autopilot are broken when the Marketplace add-on is installed.
Two aircraft that spring to mind with the issue:
• V35B
• BN-2
When the WT GNS add-on is installed both of these aircraft’s KAP units behave quite differently than they do when the add-on is not installed.
It is my understanding that the C207 has the Asobo GNS implemented by default and suffers similarly when the WT GNS add-on is installed.
There are topics regarding these issues throughout the forum.
yes, I removed and reinstalled several times. guidance for what should be installed from marketplace is inconsistent.
The advice straight from Working Title is that installing their mods in marketplace are simply pass throughs to the current default behavior. They are not strictly necessary, but they are useful for other 3rd party planes that rely on the references and have not been updated. These planes may break if the shims are not installed. They said that you should have no community mods, but the marketplace mods are ok.
I am following the advice of WT, although the forums are full of conflicting advice about completely uninstalling the 530/430 from marketplace.
They can say what they want about the add-on “simply being a pass through”, but I have documented evidence that it breaks the autopilot in the V35B.
You can even ditch the add-on and edit the aircraft’s panel.cfg file to have it load the WT GNS by default and it will also break the autopilot.
There is a clear relationship between the two on some aircraft.
I understand there is a ton of conflicting and confusing information on the issue and which one to uninstall, etc., but the issue is real and is easily replicated.
I’m not saying that your issue on your OP is due to the add-on, I was just curious if you’d tested it with it installed and not installed. I’d test it on the C207, since it’s using the Asobo GNS by default, but I don’t have the C207.
The fact that you mention the 172, however, seems to indicate the issue isn’t related to the add-on, since that aircraft has the WT GNS implemented by default.
Deleting the first and restarting reverts the 530 to the very old behavior. This works better with the KAP 140 than having it installed. The AP can be disengaged and re-engaged without issue, nav and VS modes will register after the first disengage. However you lose all the features of the current 530 implementation.
Also, the behavior of this older KAP 140 is not as documented by the official avionics guide. But among all the planes I tested, only the BlackSquare Analog C208 implementation matched the procedures according to the actual KAP 140 manual. I suspect there is a large body of misinformation among people who have not used a real KAP 140 and don’t know exactly how an AP is supposed to work… so definition of “works” vary unless you can pin people down precisely. I understand the difficulty, but that’s no excuse to ignore the problem. This is a prominent enough issue that most streamers avoid using the KAP 140 autopilot.
So, based on this testing, it looks like the default KAP 140 has assumptions that only work with the original 530/430. The updated WT 530/430 has much better implementation, but breaks the assumptions in the KAP 140. WT does not “own” the KAP 140 component, so from their point of view this is an Asobo problem.
I understand the difficulty in handling avionics systems as shared components across several developers, but this is a very hard problem to isolate, reproduce and get fixed. There is literally SO MUCH misinformation on the topic it makes it impossible for Asobo to focus on the details or work with Working Title. Everyone is pointing at everyone else.
That’s incorrect. The GRAY colored 430/530 is the CURRENT Working Title code integrated into the sim. It cannot be removed, and it represents latest state for the Garmins. So by removing the COLORED 430/530, that’s the BRIDGE version that allows 3rd Party Plane code to work with the latest GRAY colored one by redirecting their old code (which likely is still pointing to Asobo code) to the new GRAY colored one. The BRIDGE version is provided as a courtesy to buy time for 3rd Party Developers to fix their code when the WT GNS430/530 became core code to the sim. I’ve suggested it get removed soon as I can’t really think of any current manufacturers who still haven’t upgraded their code post AAU2.
That means the KAP-140 works correctly with CURRENT code, which is the desired end-state.
I don’t speak for either Asobo Dev Team (KAP-140) or Working Title, but I’ve been very adamant to folks to review their Content Manager and remove things like this, and if you don’t know what it does, ask around. We’ve written ad infinitum about the Bridge Version and it’s intent. Again, it’s highly unlikely anyone still has content that is pointing to the old Asobo code and needs the BRIDGE version.
Yes, the issue is definitely tied to the add-on that can easily be uninstalled (the one with the image of a GNS).
Your assessment is identical to that of my own – that there is a significant amount of inconsisentcy with these KAP units and their functionaltiy depending upon who implemented them and how.
Like you, I’ve got the actual documentation for both the 140 and 150 units and use them as a reference.
Interestingly, one of the aircraft that I didn’t mention in one of my previous posts is the EMB-110. It was another one of those aircraft whose autopilot’s behavior was altered by the WT GNS add-on and it took and actual update to the aircraft by NextGen Simulations to fix it.
There is definitely a correlation between the WT GNS the Asobo GNS and these autopilots along with how the individual developers have chosen to code them.
As I have stated on numerous threads, this is a total mess and has been so for the entire year since the WT GNS has been fully implemented via AAU1.
Someone upstairs needs to sort this mess out, because I’m tired of it.
I feel like you’ve misunderstood what’s been stated.
The issue here is the Asobo GNS still exists in the sim, and if the Marketplace WT GNS add-on isn’t is installed then the aircraft that have the Asobo GNS by default and a KAP 140/150 will have broken autopilot functionality.
Therefore this statement is correct for planes that still have the Asobo GNS implemented by default.
The issue here is the Marketplace add-on isn’t a fix. It’s breaking autopilots. Sure, you get the added functionality of the WT GNS, which is awesome, but you lose functionality of the AP, which is not awesome.
The add-on is a double-edged sword.
And this is not true.
The C207 that Microsoft released recently is pointing to the Asobo code.
Mario Noriega Designs just implemented the GNS in two of his planes and pointed to the Asobo GNS. I had to tell him so and showed him the code in his panel.cfg where he did so.
This is very much still a thing that is confusing to both users and developers alike. It doesn’t really matter if its been documented or discussed, because a year on and we’re still here going around and around about it.
But the 530 that the KAP 140 works with is most certainly NOT the latest code. It is the old ancient code.
Ok, the testing that I just did that test on was the C207 Stationair.
Now, I switched back to the WBSim C172 and it shows the NEW 530 even though I didn’t reinstall it.
This is frustrating beyond belief because everyone is certain they are correct, but we are all testing different combinations. We could all be telling the truth and still disagree on the facts.
Honestly, I believe the error was allowing the Asobo GNS to still exist.
They should have stripped it out of the sim and just allowed the aircraft that still supported it to be broken.
That would have forced developers to step up and fix their aircraft rather than skate by on the old code. Sure, it would have upset many users with broken airplanes, but isn’t that what we have anyway?
I could pull countless posts from this forum to prove that statement.
WT 530 has the “Garmin GFC based” autopilot code that they wrote for the G1000Nxi/G3000 in it now.
The WT Avionics run in what is called “Avionics Managed Mode” which was introduced in SU5 with the NXi. This allows them to Put the SIM AP under the hood into a Pitch and Roll Mode.
Then the Avionics Managed Mode Allowed the Separation of AP STATE and the Autopilot A:Vars. This meant they could leave the AP in Pitch and Roll … BUT “lie” to you and set the A:Vars for the Various Autopilot Modes based on their WT Autopilot Code.
Then the second part was that they added the ability to “Intercept” K:Events which would be grabbed before they could get down to the Sim. These Events can come from other Gauges (like the KAP-140 which just sends K:Events) or from External Hardware – Thus standard interfaces like the Logitech MultiPanel no longer needed 3rd party software to replace the events with H:Events or L:Vars.
The Result is an Ability to create custom Autopilots but still use the standard Events and Vars which was never possible before. In FSX/P3D 3rd party would have to all write this using L:Vars and drive the AP in HDG and VS modes. Then your hardware all needed to have it’s own ability to re-map to this data.
The Bridge:
It is replacing the call in a panel xml for the AS530.HTML Gauge with a replacement to the WT530.HTML Gauges.
The result is that your getting the WT Autopilot in addition to the GNS unit. This is where the confusion lies… It’s not the “KAP” that is being broken. The KAP is just a “Keyboard” that is sending the K:Events.
There is something since SU-14 where some of the AP initialization and the FD turning OFF then back on is causing low level issues with regards to the Avionics Managed Mode and the Low Level Sim Autopilot that is supposed to hand off to the WT AP.
BKSQ issued a “fix” that solved some of their Hot Plug issues… but that fix also would result in the default C172 not hanging on a Dev Mode Quick Reload either. It also fixed an issue with ALT/VS captures in the TBM 850 using the TDS. That same fix solved issues with capturing ILS in APR mode with the PC-12 on Raw needles and the FSW-414 again both after SU-14 release…
there are two mods in the marketplace: “Garmin GNS 430/530” (which WT says is a shim to their current implementation, but is not necessary for updated planes) and “WORKING TITLE GNS430/530” (this cannot be deleted)
deleted the first (only the first one was deletable)
CURRENT 530 - refers to the 530 that has the keyboard shortcut in the direct to and FPL modes, as well as a full set of functionality for terrain and traffic modes
LEGACY 530 - refers to the original 530 implementation that Asobo first put in the product.
TESTING RESULTS:
C207 Caranado - shows the LEGACY 530, the KAP 140 can be disengaged/reengaged. HDG, NAV, VS modes are usable.
WBSim C172 - shows the CURRENT 530, the KAP 140 cannot be reengaged, HDG, NAV do not display, VS are not usuable.
Asobot C172 steamgauge - shows the CURRENT 530, the KAP 140 cannot be reengaged, HDG, NAV do not display, VS not usuable.
This evidence is reinforcing what WT is saying. Removing what they claim is the shim doesn’t affect WBSim 172 and Asobo steamgauge 172 because they point at the CURRENT 530.
However, Caranado’s 207 without the shim points at the LEGACY 530. While this is the old 530, it works with the Asobo KAP 140.
It doesn’t matter who built it. Microsoft signed off on it. They should have seen to it that their name-branded aircraft implemented their funded improved GNS, by default.
That’s on Microsoft.
The fact that Carenado, a trusted developer, made the error just adds credence to my statement that this is continuing to befuddle users and developers alike.
Issue here turned out to be running an Old Version of TDS v1.0.3.2 that when running in the system Tray it can still conflict with the sim by sending Events…
This would have cause some kind of issue in that the SIM AP was no longer in Avionics Managed Mode but also not really out of it either…
TDS should not be controlling things when it’s not actually being used in a plane. Good news is that updating to v1.0.3.5 fixed it. So it can still be running in the back ground and no longer conflict.
There would not be an issue with the AS530 since that system Never goes into Managed Mode and thus the TDS even with 1.0.3.2 would never have conflicts with Managed Mode Priority.
I do not use TDS and I have the AP issues as described by the OP and my own findings as described in posts here and elsewhere.
I’d like to clarify, however, that I have not tested the C172, but have issues such as described when I use an AS430/530-equpped aircraft with an autopilot when the WT GNS Marketplace add-on is installed.
I do not see the issues with AS430/530-equipped aircraft with autopilots when the WT GNS Marketplace add-on is not installed.
For aircraft that have the WT430/530 installed natively, the Marketplace add-on installed or not installed has no effect, as expected.
I’d also like to add that I don’t use any sim-related external applications other than Navigraph Simlink, Navigraph Hub and SimBrief Downloader.
