To ALL Developers

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To ALL Developers

Lets talk about Flightsim.to

for 2+ years i have promoted and supported this website, but …

they have been continuosly adding ‘policy’ changes to the Freeware side of their current Business
policy changes designed for One Purpose, to Protect the Monopoly and Control they currently have over the Freeware Community

why is that bad? well its not like they are the devil or anything, its a Business and so we should expect them to protect assets, and For Certain our Freeware is an asset to this WEBSTORE, it attracts Tons of Traffic that other ‘Onine SimMarkets’ can only Dream of, not to mention the additional advertising income that traffic generates

so my problem is that they have effectively commited a fraud of sorts on the Entire Freeware Community (opinion only, im no lawyer and i do not mean in any legal sense here)
they started out on reddit, talking about a Community Driven Safe Place for us to place our Freeware (afaik there is Still a bot that sends reddit users to this WebStore), using this moniker they effectively cornered the entire msfs freeware community - very cool we have a one stop shop for our FREEWARE

they operated in this Freeware Manner for about a year (ive not researched it fully, but i found they started in late 2020 and where still ‘freeware only’ as late as Oct 2021), they even Won Awards for this Freeware Community they started
here FSmagazine voted them Editors Choice - “It has been a few months now and Flightsim.to has become a true force within the Flight Simulation community.”

All on the Backs of our Freeware Developers and the addons they posted to this ‘freeware’ “Community Plateform” (supposedly)

then they went Commercial - Make No Mistake, they are Not some “Community Plateform” any longer as they Still Claim on the front page - they are a WEBSTORE just like SimMarket or Orbx, nothing more
the Only Difference is they had half the planet already signed up as ‘members’ and they had All of our Freeware to boost traffic by the time they Told us they where just Another “WEBSTORE” and not a “Community Platform for Freeware” any longer

unfortunately, a Corporate Entity now has a Huge Monopoly on our Entire Freeware Community and is adding Policy changes to maintain that Monopoly
its a Great Business Strategy, and will undoubtedly work since no other ‘community’ site ever stepped up to challenge them back when they where Freeware, and so we have no other single place to use

am i being overly protective of the freeware community? maybe, as a long time broke gamer i have always had to depend on freeware to enhance my sims
i do buy payware on occasion but im a Big Supporter of the freeware community as a developer now, and frankly i simply can not get behind a COMPANY using our Freeware for Profit
especially with the policies they have introduced, they do a good job of making these policies hard to find, but as a developer this one is probably the most important (be sure to Read ALL the small print, take screenshots if you have to)

“By submitting or posting User Content to the Service […] you grant this Site a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable, assignable, unrestricted, worldwide license to use the User Content, […] to distribute, publicly perform, publicly display, transmit, communicate to the public and modify the User Content […]. You also grant each other user of the Service a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free licence to access your User Content through the Service, and to use that User Content […].”
https://flightsim.to/help/uploading-at-flightsimto/limited-ability-to-delete-your-file

they can literally Seize files against your will, they did so ‘retroactively’ to Five files of mine, not to mention they are tying Freeware Policy to this Bussiness Acount (they can Ban your Account for an Optional Upload? (for policy violations) possibly Locking you out of Payware)
whats worse to me is they also hijack your Profile and Username for advertizing in some aspects by Forcing these files to remain on your account against your will, it took 2 days to even get a responce on my Locked files - 2 of which were Broken
from the Front Page of their site …
“Flightsim.to is a reputable community platform and home to thousands of free add-ons, mods, liveries and scenery enhancements for Microsoft Flight Simulator, trusted by creators all over the world.”
by hosting files there, they contend we Trust This WEBSTORE “trusted by creators” on the front page
they also use the term “Community Platform”, do you consider a WebStore a ‘community platform’? - i dont, imo they lost that moniker the day they went Commercial

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That’s very interesting and horrific as you’ve described. Thank you for drawing our attention to the situation.

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I am a developer of a free MSFS addon, and struggled to make it available to interested users. It did find a home on Flightsim.to

I accept your points, and am a little miffed by these policies (which I did not know about). I think they should be made more explicit to developers at the time they upload their software.

Since posting my software on Flightsim.to it has had 6500 downloads. Despite posting my software on my homepage and making a YouTube video, it would never have found so many users but for Flightsim.to.

I would like to balance the discussion by pointing out the ‘free’ services provided by Flightsim.to:

  1. Free storage space is provided for the software and for screen shots and descriptive text.
  2. Users are assured that the software has been examined and scanned for viruses.
  3. It is easy for the developer to upload revisions and for users to be notified of that.
  4. Ratings submitted by users are tallied. Their comments can be answered by the developer
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Flightsim.to is my favourite and only place I upload my freeware content.
I don’t have a problem with them selling payware as well they have to pay to run the website so I don’t see the problem.
Think it was pretty clear in the terms and conditions down to users to read them.
I don’t see an issue for freeware devs if they get more traffic my add-ons get more downloads. can’t really see a downside.
I don’t see how selling payware is effecting the freeware community on flightsim.to.

I think flightsim.to is the easiest to navigate and easiest to upload yo and edit uploads.

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Whether you agree or not, all they are really telling you is what will most likely happen to your Freeware IP.
If its Human readable, and understandable, there will always be people who look at it, and may use it in their own product - Freeware or payware, and there is really little you can do about that, unless you come up with a uncrackable copy protection scheme, and so far, NOBODY involved with the MSFS, has manage to do that. (Hopefully that will change soon )

More concerning to me is any lack of response to request to update material, that the developer wants to updated (for whatever reason).

You mention it took 2 day .. well that really not so bad, compared with 2 weeks+ to get any MS-Marketplace update through the Marketplace update process !!

I don’t believe I have any of your MSFS Freeware, but I do thank you for making the effort to develop products, and offer them up to the community as Freeware.

I hope you continue to enjoy the challenge & satisfaction of doing this, as much as those using your products do,

:+1:

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What’s the problem here? You gotta help me understand. This isn’t a bait and switch that’s stealing freeware. It looks like a growing community platform that is monetizing, which will act to benefit the community.

The policy looks like typical “cover your butt” wording that protects them from being sued when somebody decides that their add-on is suddenly worth money and doesn’t want it strewn across the internet after they’ve already uploaded it as freeware. If you’re uploading content just to share with other simmers, I don’t really see any issues in here.

Was flightsim.to always supposed to be non-commercial? I guess I don’t see why this even matters. Yes, your freeware is driving traffic to their site which they then capitalize on by taking a percentage in sales. But they’re hosting and promoting your content for free, and no doubt a lot of work went into that. They’re hosting massive amounts of content for everyone for free. I’d rather have a thriving platform that’s expanding because it’s making money, then one that’s half broken and struggling for volunteers. Seems like an ok price to pay to me. I’ll go even further and say that having a full fledged competitor to the built-in Marketplace is a great thing.

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Back in the early days, people were trying to give them donations due to them being all free, which they refused, saying they were working on monetizing the platform.

I would think it was always their intent to do this. You can still post freeware stuff, but they also have paid content to pay the bills and actually make some money.

I haven’t used it other than an end user, so I can’t say I’ve paid close attention to the legalities, details and conditions.

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There’s two ways you can have free hosting for free content

  • Ads
  • “Premium” service

Seems to me that it’s not so much about a bottom line as it is keeping this service available for all the perpetually broke gamers.

But honestly this is no different than how anything you’ve ever signed up for will sell your information to 3rd parties for god knows what purpose.

And in the end, if a developer disagrees with the terms and conditions, they don’t have to upload their files there. It’s literally that simple.

All this stuff about how corporate fat cats are ruining us proletariat gamers is really being over thought. Are we really that bored?

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Flightsim.com looks like it’s still alive and well. I have add-ons I posted there in 1998 that are still available.

image
image747×241 13.3 KB

And they’re accepting Flight Simulator add-ons as well. So I wouldn’t call it a true monopoly either. It’s just that one platform is more modern and promoted itself more.

Maybe I’m weird, but anything I post to any platform, be it this forum, Facebook, or flightsim.to, I treat like a balloon I’m letting go and waving goodbye to. It’s gone and I’m totally comfortable with the world having it, repacking it, selling my info, whatever. If I wasn’t, I just wouldn’t post.

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your looking at it backward from me, like a WebStore comperable to the MarketPlace - which it is Now, but be honest you go there more for the freeware than to buy a product, right?
my concern isnt them selling payware, its them using freeware and making policy that gives them unlimited, unresrticted rights to freeware (including a more restrictive license or possibly the right to sell it, “royalty free” suggests money is involved afaik possibly fees in the future? they can find a way if they want with that license)
honestly i do not think ‘selling it’ is part of the plan atm for them, but the way those licenses are written i would be suprised if they couldnt
nor do i believe we have seen the last of these restrictive Policy changes

i like to use the creative commons licenses that allow anyone to distro my files with certain requirements like credits for the author, the one very Important part of that license is others can Not apply further restrictions, they can distro it but only under the same license

im not trying to protect my Freeware from the public or You, sure some may abuse it but they can do that no matter where they get it from

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from what i have read by Royalty free it sounds like it means that the add-on can be used and distributed by flightsim.to for 0 charge to flightsim.to or users of those add-ons.

(4.3) By submitting or posting User Content to the Service (either directly or through a Third Party Service) you grant this Site a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable, assignable, unrestricted, worldwide license to use the User Content, together with all consents or waivers (if any) necessary to distribute, publicly perform, publicly display, transmit, communicate to the public and modify the User Content, by any means and in all media formats and channels now known or hereafter devised in perpetuity, and to advertise and promote such use, without further notice to, or permission from, you or any other person, and without compensation or reference to you or any other person.

And by this the say about monetizing as in placing adverts on our add-on pages.

It also says the right doesn’t give the site permission to bill customers without the consent of users, as in us devs.

(4.7) You grant to the Platform the right to monetize your User Content on the Service (and such monetization may include displaying ads on or within User Content). This Agreement does not entitle you to any payments.

(4.8) The right granted does not entitle the Site to bill other users for your User Content against payment, for example through sale or sublicensing against payment, without the prior consent of the User.

Taken directly off flightsim.to

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As long as access to the “Freeware” products remains free to the end users I don’t see it being an issue.

It costs a lot of money to host servers, storage space and the bandwidth to support tens of thousands of downloads. The hosting company or group needs to cover those costs somehow. If it means I have to scroll past the images of the premium products for purchase or see some ads within the matrix of the free downloads that’s OK by me.

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(emphasis mine)

Like he said the only way flightsim.to can charge you for content is if you (the content creator) expressly allow them to. So where’s the outrage? You have legal basis if they arbitrarily decide to charge $5 for a formerly freeware airport (for example).

Take my like. Like the old saying goes “theres no such thing as a free lunch.”

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I have a feeling the royalty free clause is simply there to protect them against being sued.

I don’t recall that they ever said they were going to be not-for-profit either. These clauses have been there since the start, before the marketplace stuff happened. We knew where we were putting our files. In fact I’ve chosen to only put them there, to keep management of uploads much easier. The other sites unfortunately have chosen not to modernise.

It also has to be expensive to run with the amount of traffic they have. I don’t have a problem with them trying to cover their costs and make a little bit to keep such a site in operation. This site was sorely needed.

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I see no problem with Flightsim.to’s changes over time. Their expenses have to be paid for somehow and they have a right to earn a living. They profit by having my freeware available to attract users to their payware and ads that support their site. I profit by having a well known, free and very usable platform to promote my work. Seems like it works just as well for developers as it does for Flightsim.to. They also have a great piracy policy to protect content creators like myself. And they have always been reasonable on any contact I have made. If you want to see silly legal small print just look at the owners manual of any recent car. Just like any business, Flightsim.to have to protect themselves with legalese.

" it’s not the strongest or most intelligent of the species that survives but the one that’s most adaptable to change." Charles Darwin.

To me it just looks like Flightsim.to are just adapting to change.

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I, too, have a mod hosted on the site - I’ve followed their development since launch and always knew they would be monetising at some point. As that increases, so will their reliance on ensuring they are legally protected as a business entity. In all their communication, I feel they have been reasonably open.

Personally, my freeware is just that - completely open source (GPL-3 & also on GitHub) - so I don’t see any issue with their wording. I suppose for each developer, their licence and how they would like their product treated is the issue at hand, and this is perhaps somewhere where Flightsim.to could improve.

I’ve been trying to put my hand into developing a payware product, and this is hidden in a private Git repository where I can invite selected users. Eventually, I will try and launch it on the store and Flightsim.to just because of the traffic available.

What I do hope they do is curate payware products to ensure they are of a good enough quality, as I know there are some sites out there that allow any old nonsense designed to make £££s for its authors and not perhaps a quality product worthy of our money. How you do that, however, is far outside my pay grade!

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Yes, I think that this is my current overall take on this as well.

As long as freeware developers are protected (as much as is feasible anyway) from their product being charged for without their consent (section 4.8 ?) and the terms are clear for everybody to see (users and developers alike) then I don’t think that I have a massive problem here.

I get, however, that that the terms can be changed in future which could be a concern maybe down the line. That said, if the terms were ever changed retrospectively to charge users without developers consent then I do wonder if the potential backlash and bad PR from users and developers alike would be worth it in the long term. However, I would expect that if this was ever to happen then another enterprising team would set up another download site for future freeware making the payware site almost redundant eventually.

The question of a monopoly is I suppose a real one because for most of us here I think that the download site is our ‘go to’. Personally, I think I can live with this as long as the position is not abused. I do honestly wonder though if at some time in the (non too distant) future we may have to suffer the obligatory sponsored video adverts before we can get our download. This would then pave the way for yet another source of income in the form of a subscription to avoid the adverts. I think this could be a very real possibilty to be honest and one I, myself, wouldn’t be a fan of especially if there was no other download site for me to go to. Competition and a good number of options is usually always best for the consumer. It is for me anyway.

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I agree. As a freeware developer you could argue that they earn money (via ads) with your uploaded material. By stating you upload it royalty free, you waive any rights to sue them over this.

Hosting isn’t cheap. Especially having a lot of files of a few GBs

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If the situation were reversed, say they had a viable commercial business and then offered " hey, we have a website with lots of traffic. If you want to upload your freeware, we are ok with that", would you be ok with that scenario? They could end up with the same ratio of commercial vs freeware. In both cases you are uploading on your own free will. Only in this scenario you knew from the outset that they are a business.
Just a thought

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I don’t see what the issue is. Flightsim.com, xplane.org, xaviation, Avsim, they all sell stuff. Nobody makes you buy from them. Heck, even when you go the in game map, dollar sign icons populate to let you know there is a product for sale at the airport you want to fly from or too! IN GAME that you paid for.

I think this is a big deal being made about literally nothing.

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