Trouble with finding and maintaining a stable glide path on final in C152

I am still in early-stage learning. I fly the default Cessna 152 in order to learn. I manage to relatively reliably hit a stable descend or climb rate, or a chosen speeds after having started and before entering the traffic pattern, following PAT and APT procedures.

However, when it comes to landing, more precisely, when I turn to base all my familiarity falls apart. I do not find a stable glide path, not to say one that is smoothly between 300-600 fpm. One reason for this, surely, is that I still miss experience in judging a promising size for the traffic pattern, so sometimes I turn to final too high and sometimes too low. However, this is not what I want to ask about here. As it ‘only’ effects how steep the glide path is, not the problem of the stability of the glide path.

With respect to the prblem of the stability of the glide path, 2 things that I read again and again cause trouble for me, because they do not wokr out as proposed and I do not under stand why:

  1. the hit point of the runway, the 2 white bars on some runways for instance, should be fixated visually directly on top of the instrument panel
  2. I should only use throttle to change the rate of descend and correct my glide path

My problem with (1) is that sometimes I end up half the runway when doing this and another time I hit ground before even reaching the runway. Thus it does not appear as a reliable indicator to me where the hit point appears in my window. I have to admit, I also do not understand why it shouldn’t since depending on the rate of my glide path my speedm the flaps and so on tha plane is supposed to have a different attitude, is it not? Consequently, the hit point is located at a different position on the cockpit window. What do I understand wrong, or what different orientation exists for visual orientation?

The problem (2) is multifaceted. First, the tiniest, tiniest change to throttle always results in a bigger impact than desired. I wonder, if this is maybe also hardware related? I use the slider of a thrustmast T.16000M, so maybe because it has a relatively small physical range, the impact is always relatively big, I do not know? Does this work better with a throttle quadrant? Secondly, I also read someone writing in this forum somewhere, that only using throttle results in Phugoid, which, indeed, kind of resembles what my glide path looks like. Thus, he wrote, it will be always an adjustment of everything all at once. And indeed, allowing me to adjust everything at once (speed, rpm, attitutde) improves my glide path. However, why then it’s written everywhere that it is only about using throttle to adjust glide path?

Thank you for helping me improve my skills!

I would recommend using the throttle to begin descent, but don’t forget to trim out when you reach the right descent angle (vertical speed / airspeed ratio) – you probably won’t get the ideal angle without adjusting trim.

When I started to fly with the sim 3 years ago I went through your same difficulties. I’ve learned that,once you know a bit of theory then the medicine here is experience.Believe me,after 100 flights (or a bit more..Lol) you’ll understand how to land precisely .

With regard to the throttle problem,I also started with the joystick slider then I moved to the Thrustmaster quadrant Airbus edition which let you manage the throttle in a much better way IMO.
In the meantime you may modify your control sensitivity and extreme dead zone to see if you get any help.

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It’s all down to visuals if you have your speed in check
i usually look at the angle of the deck, as i come in closer i then try and spot and aim for 2 reds two white papy lights
(as they are not visually that far out to be spotted properly on my rig) then as the runway comes in close, i transition from the papi to aiming at the numbers (falling short), flare above the numbers, stare at the end of the runway as the airplane descends from the air to ground at idle throttle and that usually ends me up generally at the white bars
 as to where bigger airplanes, tend to just keep falling out of the sky at a steadier pace if you have the airspeed dailed in, making that descent towards the white bars more precise, but that’s just because of the weight of the big boys. It’s usually the wind that plays a factor in the smaller airplanes that make the final approach vary a bit. Hope it helps. Good luck, Captain!

Thus, one of the take-aways then is: using elevators/trim in order get into the correct glide path is not bad practice. Once the glide path is stable, throttle alone does the job (if hardware allows the fine tuning).

But what about the significant delay with respect to the impact of throttle changes and the Phugoid-like situation. When I do climb, descend and cruise trimming, during normal flight, I usually use the elevators in order compensate for the ‘exagerated’ immediate impact of change in throttle until the plane is trimmed well: what I mean is having a stable vertical speed instead of the airplane going too much up after more throttle, then slowing down again, getting too much speed, going up again and so forth. Not using the elevators during final in order to control this effect leads to pricisely this effect for me, thus I start by repeatedly adding and removing throttle, which, obviously, does not make the glide path more stable. All in all, using just throttle, in my experience until now, does not only make the glide path more or less steep, it destabilizes the glide path in general. Again, something I would normally compensate for via the elevators/trimm, which as I read/listen, I am not supposed to use in that situation.

Maybe someone can share some more details from his/her experience on this specific situation. Thx.

When making your approach in the C172 your speed should be between 60-70 knots, once established make sure you are fully configured full flaps. Once you are at the correct speed use your pitch to control that speed (lower nose if slow, raise if fast)

Then you use your throttle to control your decent rate (more throttle if you are low, less if you are high)

One big note, make small changes and don’t chase it. Make a small change and wait, the make another small change if necessary.

Approach and landing correctly is a science. As a new student pilot (IRL) I’ve learned more about landing properly than over 20 years of flight simming.

Don’t give up. Practice practice practice.

It’s hard to evaluate exactly what you’re encountering from reading a textual description (that is a universal truth), but I’ll give it a shot.

You’ve established that an increase in power leads to a nose-up tendency and vice-versa for reducing power. But do you know why? It’s because of the change in airflow over the horizontal stabilizer and how that interacts with the centers of lift (which might also be changing) and center of gravity.

If you were to balance an aircraft on its center of gravity (CG) at zero indicated airspeed, it’d just sit there. Now let’s start moving the aircraft - an increase of airspeed over an airfoil like a wing, when combined with angle of attack, results in an increase in lift. The center of that lift (CL), in most non ultra-maneuverable aircraft (like a Cessna), is coming from a point on the wing that is behind the center of gravity. So adding lift will naturally want to torque the aircraft nose-down ad-infinitum. If a continuous forward tumble were possible, that’s what it would do.

Enter the horizontal stabilizer. The horizontal stab is way out there on the empennage, so it has a pretty good lever arm from both the CG and CL. However, it is also an airfoil. The key is that it “flies” upside down - providing lift, when accelerated, increasingly downward (as opposed to the wing, which provides lift upward). This tail-down force counteracts the aforementioned tumbling moment provided by the CG and CL, providing balance.

But the horizontal stabilizer isn’t completely fixed in place. Otherwise, it would only provide balance at one set of airspeeds and weight/balance conditions, and that’s not a thing in flying. So we can adjust it either through moving the trailing edge of it, as in an elevator, or the entire thing, as with a stabilator. So in flying the horizontal stab, you are grossly adjusting that tail-down force to maintain the pitch attitude you want.

But again, an increase in lift not only affects the wing, but it increases the tail down force of the horizontal stab. So you speed up, lift increases, the tail goes down, the nose goes up and you start losing airspeed (energy), which causes the lift to decrease, the tail to go less down (or up), the nose to go less up (or down), which causes the airspeed to increase, etc. don’t perform any dampening, or worse, amplify them by means of pilot-induced oscillation (PIO) and the result is the phugoid oscillation you mentioned.

So in essence what we want to do is use the elevator to find a speed at which the acceleration of the airplane is stable - not increasing or decreasing airspeed, and a steady rate of climb or descent. Let me rephrase: when you pitch the aircraft, you’re pitching for speed. If I want to maintain 80 knots in a Cessna 172 at full throttle, I put the nose up until it gets to 80 knots and hold that speed using the elevator. If holding the elevator in a position to make it maintain that speed is tiresome (and it will be), I use trim to reduce the pressure, in essence balancing the elevator’s angle of attack and resulting lift at the intended speed.

In that scenario, I take whatever rate of climb/descent I can get. But let’s say it’s giving us a 1000fpm climb and I only want 500fpm. In most realistic cases, we’d pitch for a higher airspeed and resulting lower climb rate, but no, in this example I want to maintain 80 knots and 500 FPM. I can do this one of two ways (without reconfiguring the airfoils) - one, I can take off heavier, or two, I can reduce the power of the engine. After all, it’s excess power or thrust that allows us to climb.

So I throttle back, and now the airspeed drops a bit, so I need to pitch down a bit and the airspeed stabilizes or picks back up until I’ve hit my target airspeed again and desired rate of climb. So the answer is BOTH - you’re going to be playing with pitch and power to achieve the desired performance, whether it’s takeoff or landing, it’s just that takeoff we’re most often at max continuous power no matter what so we take what we get. But landing is where it gets more
 playful, usually due to the increase in drag that accompanies slower flight with flaps and gear out (another topic).

But as a pilot, a big portion of our job is to anticipate and dampen those oscillations we’re speaking of. So when you reduce power and do nothing else, you’re going to get behind the aircraft - it’ll get slow, maybe to the point where you lose elevator effectiveness, or worse, exceed the critical angle of attack and stall. Instead, pitch for the desired airspeed and trim to reduce pressure. Adjust the throttle to get the rate or angle you want, then repurchase and retrieve to maintain it all. Practice, practice, practice and you’ll get the hang of this.

To this extent, I wouldn’t practice in the pattern - too much (notional) traffic, too many distractions, and too low to the ground. Instead, isolate the variables. Go out to a good practice area, several thousand feet above the ground. Establish trimmed, straight and level flight, then reduce the throttle. Aim for a particular airspeed and rate of descent. Use the combination of pitch and power to achieve a stable descent. When you achieve that, trim, trim, trim until you don’t have to hold the yoke anymore.

Do the same for climbs. Try both climbs and descents clean and dirty (flaps and/or gear), see the differences. There is an order to doing this effectively, but I don’t care about that in this moment - I want you to experiment. Try to anticipate how the nose and airspeed are going to respond to your changes in power and dampen them, then trim to hold them. The runway aimpoints and the transition to a landing attitude is another discussion that comes later. Practice and master stabilized descents and climbs first. :slightly_smiling_face:

As far as PAPI/VASI lights, I have a whole rant on how the game places then incorrectly, often way too far down short runways, to the point where I often ignore them unless I know they’re placed correctly.

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