Microsoft Store version, build 1.19.x after last week’s hotfix.
Do you have any add-ons in your Community folder? If yes, please remove and retest before posting.
Yes, removed them, and still had problem.
Are you using Developer Mode or made changes in it?
Not at this time.
Detail steps to reproduce the issue encountered:
Using a moderate amount of rudder in flight (such as keeping the nose level in a steep turn, or a semi-slow aileron roll, or trying to make a big slip emulating the Reno STOL drag races) causes the plane to tumble out of the sky. This starts out more like a lomcevak even though you're at cruising speed and eventually becomes a steeply nose-down spin with the center of rotation more towards the tail of the plane than the CoG. This spin is unrecoverable if you attempt to stop it with opposite rudder because that just starts the process over again. If you're lucky, you remember NOT to use the rudder again and can regain control before you run out of altitude.
I have had this happen with several each of both stock and 3rd-party planes so it seems to be a general MSFS issue. And this behavior definitely did not exist prior to 1.19.x. I was just flying like I always have and this tumbling started to happen. And not just to me, but also to my MP friend I was flying with last Thursday.
NOTE: Using a small amount of rudder, such as to keep a plane straight on takeoff and crabbed on final, does NOT cause this problem. It only happens with moderately forceful rudder application.
Anyway, I’ve noticed that 1.18 and 1.19 have done strange things to the control axes, most noticeable in arbitrarily reversing direction of either elevator trim (1.18) or the elevator itself (1.19). The rudder axis direction hasn’t changed but the behavior certainly has.
Anybody else having this other than me and @CuzDawg3 ?
Depending on flight configuration and aircraft. Over application of rudder can result in the retreating wing stalling. This combined with the increased lift of the accelerating wing can result in a snap roll. As @Neo4316 suggested, I would start be setting rudder sensitivity to 0%. A log curve on the rudder axis can result in very little response from rudder input rapidly become extreme over control past half application.
Accelerated stalls are often difficult to recover from without proper training. I most cases the pilot fails to reduce throttle and attempts to recover too aggressively. This will result in another stall. Remember to neutralize all input prior to pulling out of the ensuing dive and apply back pressure smoothly or you will be forced to repeat the procedure.
When flying on the edge of the envelope, the closer you can set your control axis to linear the better. It is very easy to overcontrol when the sensitivities are set above 20%.
I have only encountered this with the Pitts and Extra. Not since SU5 though. They reduced rudder effectiveness and stall characteristics to the point that neither aircraft is capable of realistic aerobatic flight anymore. The Pitts was soooo close at SU4. was having lots of fun with snap rolls and rudder turns, etc. SU5 turned the Pitts into an over powered Cub. Rudder effectiveness is reduced so far that it is nearly impossible to safely get it into the air.
Over aggressive pullout during spin recovery used to result in secondary spins in the 152/172 but I have not tested that recently.
That’s strange. Just tried the Extra and 152 and I can’t replicate this phenomenon.
Applying full rudder in level flight at cruising speed just yaws the nose pretty much as expected but that’s it (although it’s way too little on the Extra)
Can’t be a stall since there’s no AoA change.
edit: The 152 snaps very nicely, at least to the right.
Should not be a thing in most stable aircraft. 152/172 yaw induced stall should never happen. Hi-performance aircraft, different story. It is not the yaw itself that causes the stall it is improper control of the aircraft at the onset of excessive yaw. This should never happen at cruise speeds but has been the cause of more than one crash. (737 - rudder hard over)
Hop back into the 152. Trim for stable cruise. Apply full rudder deflection. DO NOT correct with ailerons. Try to maintain altitude. Improper use of elevator as the bank angle increases will result in a high speed, high bank angle stall.
In something like the 152, it all happens pretty slow and is generally benign, and easy to recover. Back before they castrated the rudder on the Extra and Pitts, this would happen very quickly to the uninitiated.
Again. There can’t be a stall if the stall AoA isn’t exceeded.
Hence it’s impossible during cruise in level flight. Never heard of such a phenomenon until now.
The 737 rudder hard over has nothing to do with a stall either.
Especially at low speed and high AoA the rudder simply provides a much higher roll rate than the ailerons and roll spoilers together due to the swept wing.
Again, the 152 snaps (to the right) pretty much like the real one.
Not arguing your point about no change in angle of attack. You and I are seasoned pilots. Applying full rudder is not going to result in a loss of control. The OPs description of what they are experiencing does not make sense if we are only considering the yaw. The only way for this to be reproducible is to improperly deal with the yaw, or in the case of aerobatics, use the to induce other forces.
That’s why I suggested trying it from the standpoint of an inexperienced pilot. Stomp the rudder, let the excessive roll happen, try not to lose altitude by pulling back on the stick while still holding the rudder. To us, in a 152, this is all going to happen very slowly and will feel completely counterintuitive. Remember how easy it was to stall in a 360 degree steep turn in training, when that angle of bank kept creeping past 60 and the altitude started to drop and you didn’t add power to maintain airspeed.
Reading the OPs original post, I have no idea what their level of proficiency is or even what airplane they are flying. If flying a Cherokee and throwing it into a skid with no compensation with the ailerons, disaster is not far away, if the bank angle is allowed to increase and the pilot tries to hold altitude.
I wasn’t suggesting the hard over caused a stall. I was simply using that to illustrate that the excessive yaw caused a loss of control.
I cannot explain why OP is encountering this phenomena with simple rudder application. Something else is going on here. Keep in mind that to perform a snap roll you need sufficient rudder authority to yaw the aircraft at a fast enough rate to drop the chosen wing below stall speed. In the Pitts, I would enter the maneuver at about 100 knots but guys flying the edge or Extra like it at about 120. To perform the maneuver properly requires a sharp nose up combined with sharp application of rudder to get the retreating wing to stall while the advancing wing continues flying, resulting in a violent “horizontal autorotation” or snap roll. Hold the rudder until you want out. Obviously not a 152 maneuver but improper control inputs with the rudder at full deflection can quickly result in either a spiral dive or a “vertical autorotation”.
Since SU5, I have been unable to perform a snap roll in the Pitts and so am at a loss as to what OP is experiencing in “several stock and 3rd party aircraft”.
I use rudders often. All good. I do crazy high G turns with them in the F-15(full throttle plus full air brakes while turning). I’ve done some crazy stuff. As long as I’m not around a mountain, I’m solid.
I am quite familiar with all this. I’ve been flying real and sim for 30 years, and RC for 10 years before that started. And I was flying just fine prior to the update. I changed nothing. Not my settings, not the way I’ve been flying planes in MSFS since the alpha. But now planes are falling out of the sky when doing things that worked fine a couple weeks ago. That’s why I asked this question.
One of the planes that does this for me the worst post-SU5 is in fact the Extra. It also now bounces very, very badly on landing, which is another difference I’ve just noticed recently.
I can think of crossed controls as that “something else”, as in aileron 1 way and rudder the other. As I thought I mentioned in the OP, it seems to happen when I use top rudder to keep the nose level, either in a flat turn banked 45^ or more, or during an aileron roll (not a snap roll or barrel roll) slow enough to need this when passing through knife-edge (and also needing down elevator when passing through inverted).
Now, as mentioned above, I know about accelerated stalls and all such things which come along with ACM and aerobatics. Most of my sim time is in fact in PvP WW2 combat sims and my copy of Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering was signed by the author at an Aces High convention some years back. And I’ve been flying MSFS regularly for just shy of 2 years going back to the alpha, so my controllers and their settings have been dialed in long since. And as such, I know how the planes have been behaving and how I’ve been flying them prior to now. But now, suddenly, while my controllers and my inputs on them haven’t changed, the planes’ behavior has.
Why can’t everybody use the same terminology? But now that you mention it, I do recall hearing “flat turn” used in aerobatic contexts. Been a long time since I spoke that dialect, though.
I use a “flat” 360 to test rudder effectiveness in the Pitts. Used to be able to maintain almost double standard rate, about 1’ 15" for 360. Now it is closer to 3’. Makes any aerobatic maneuver requiring large rudder input impossible. Try a knife edge. (not below 1000’ AGL, if you don’t want to plant potatoes)
But now that you mention it, I do recall hearing “flat turn” used in aerobatic contexts. Been a long time since I spoke that dialect, though.