do you know how the brunner software connection to the sim works ?
do they get datarefs from the sim for their effects or is it only a guess from their software ?
I can only guess. I assume you use the CLS2Sim which connects to the sim via Simconnect. It’s then up to Brunner to lookup relevant datarefs that you can utilise in the profiles you create.
There are videos on this page that show some of the processes to follow:
They only seem to specifically cover X-Plane. I feel from looking at these that these videos are a work in progress, and something so detailed really could do with some more walkthroughs for potential customers.
It’s also my impression that while the X-Plane implementation may be quite mature, with native FFB support in the sim, for MSFS that support is probably rudimentary at best, and external to the sim. Hopefully that will change, with Asobo’s help.
These are the4 the patents that I know Immersion Corp held for FFB tech and have now expired.
MS also held one which had also expired
It’s entirely possible that either Immersion or MS hold additional patents on the tech but I’m not aware of them and unless they were filed substantially later than the ones we do know of they’ll probably be close to expiry as well (if they haven’t expired already)
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Still got my trusty Microsoft SideWinder Force Feedback 2 as well!!!
I Love it, and this is the only one I still use.
I remember buying it at CompUSA (no longer around), they offered extended warranty, I refused 
(as I always do…)
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Regarding control inputs for real aircraft, there’s a few different methodologies. Lots of newer aircraft are designed to have “sidesticks” that are very similar to the control joysticks that we use for Flightsim. Some return to center all the time (regardless of surface position), whereas some choose to match the surface position (i.e., there are motors within the stick that work to match the position of the surfaces). Regardless, both sticks usually have force resistance motors to simulate how a stick would “feel” if it were physically connected to the surfaces. Some also have a “soft-stop” which is less extreme than the “hard-stop”, which is the full extent that you can move the surface. at “soft-stop”, the motors provide additional resistance that the pilot will have to physically overcome to reach the “hard-stop”. These sticks are highly redundant and typically much higher-quality than the flightsim joysticks. as a result, they’re often 1,000s (or 10’s of 1,000s) of dollars.
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Actually, the FFB market was great for a short while. Every big title had support. I remember there were were even first person shooters.
It just felt like one of the many in a long line of Microsoft experiments they just killed off. It seemed to correspond with the game port dying off and was never brought to USB.
MS released the Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 with a USB interface and that is almost certainly the most important and popular FFB joystick every released so I’m not sure it’s fair to say losing the gameport killed FFB.
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I don’t recall ever seeing the FFB2 with USB. I just remember there being talk of the adapter but that was late 90s and such a distant memory.
I gave up my SWFFB2 once windows dropped support for the game port. I had young kids at the time so any kind of gaming or simming wasn’t a priority then.
I see these sidewinders are popular on ebay now. Would have never imagined there would be such a market for antique peripherals.
I’m still using the good old G940 from logitech… still love it, but it’s definately showing it’s age and slowly falling apart… but great conversation guys!
I wish either a manufacturer like Logitech or even the Dev team Martial, Sebastian or Jorg would get the lead out and finally open up to FFB the way it’s meant to be.
Martial was asked a few times about ffb, but i get the feeling he thinks canned trembling effects are actually force feedback… it’s much more dynamic, my dear man… i’m pretty sure you’d love the geekyness of it, once you would try programming it… Anyways, i’m just wondering if we can do a community effort and actually email a couple of manufacturers and get FFB back on the table again… it’s been so long and it’s about time.
Either one or the other has to kick the ball first… right now it’s neither, but maybe some more peer pressure from the userbase is just the right tool to get something done. After all, we’ve got quite a lot of users now in MSFS2020, this would mean an awsome market to profit from, right?
i’m not talking abusive profits, but the G940 back then was priced around 300 dollars… for a ffb joystick, throttle and pedals, that’s an awsome deal for consumers.
Woof ~ Woof & Salute!
Steiny
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Ah, so I had the FFB1. The FFB2s on ebay seem tempting but I’ve been flying MSFS left handed now with a quadrant setup.
Crazy I had this when I was 25. Now at 50 they have to be hacked together. Perhaps when I’m 75 we’ll have a good consumer option again.
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Yes, there was quite a buzz around it when it 1st came out. It was supposed to be the next big thing and everybody was paying attention to it, waiting for reports from the early-adopters. But those reports generally weren’t great. The result didn’t add enough to the experience to justify the cost and the time and effort required to get the system working and then properly tuned. Plus, in general the FFB sticks back then fewer hats and buttons than their non-FFB contemporaries, so you lost some functionality as well. Thus, the general consensus of customers became that FFB was a gimmick, not a must-have, and that was the end of it.
And that’s still my opinion of FFB for flightsims, at least as embodied in sticks and yokes. This is because in real life, you don’t feel the bumps and all through the stick but through the seat of your pants. Realistically, FFB in a stick or yoke would only create variable resistance to control movement based on speed, and also do the stick-shaker. If you want to feel gravel runways and turbulence, that should be in your chair.
I read a lot of wishful thinking. When MS still sold sticks, the demand was actually quite high (that’s why there were 3 editions).
Only the high price deters many.
And FFB in flight simulators works quite well.
Back pressure on the wings, air pockets, stalling, taxiway… that’s fine.
In my opinion even better than in racing simulators.
Just not with this state-of-the-art program here.
By the way, for the excitement in your pants there is the jet seat
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Did you actually use a SWFFB on a sim or game title that had native programming? The variable resistance on the controls was a huge difference on the level VR brings.
In FPS games that used them it made for the best way I’ve ever experienced to exactly detect where you were getting hit from.
Feeling all the bumps was an extra benefit. Knowing by feel when and which wheels were on or off the ground was also helpful. It’s enough to trick the brain, even if it’s not in the seat. Rumble pads and controllers, which came later, were (and still are) terrible.
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Spot on!
As a heavy modder who converts and creates racing tracks/physics tuning/handling.
I place FFB components like elevation resistance, bumps, friction points etc etc on the track surface materials using various mapping tools and it translates to my G29 wheel output however I create the ingredients in conjunction with the vehicles handling physics meta values.
I’ve successfully ported and emulated full Assetto Corsa FFB into GTAV using a G29.
As for MSFS it would be really cool to see FFB implemented, but I’m not sure what a pilot feels through yoke/stick & rudder when taxiing over runway elevation dips, turbulence, first contact touchdown landing gear/helo skid/amphibious float friction. I take it FFB calculations would have vast differences between advanced tech heavy framed passenger aircraft ,fight jets, small prop planes and rotary.
That feedback is certainly needed in this sim because just like VR it improves flying skills when more of your senses are tied into the experience. We would actually feel a sloppy hard landing and learn from it. Right now my vision and auditory senses give a really good sense of hard landing gear touch downs, flare and drag I could only imagine adding FFB to the mix.
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I still have my Sidewinder FFB 2 as well, and it’s a tank. I used it mostly for FSX, IL-2, and Rise of Flight. It worked best, by far, in Rise of Flight. That game had force feedback down to an art. FSX, though, had terrible force feedback output; it was very unrealistic and just weird in how it reacted sometimes.
Fortunately, there was a third party guy who produced an excellent payware FFB application that did a fantastic job of replacing the FSX output with much more realistic FFB profiles. I don’t remember the name of that software now.
When done well, like in Rise of Flight, or the add-on for FSX, force feedback becomes an essential enhancement to flight simulation. I fly in real life (GA), and control feel is a huge part of the experience. I also fly sailplanes, and whenever Asobo adds them to the sim force feedback would be a big plus if it could be done. Glider pilots rely heavily upon feel, in the “seat of the pants” and through the controls, to find thermals and center the glider in them.
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Yes, I did give it a try, as I knew people who had FFB sticks. I did not find it to add enough to be worth the drawbacks. Yes, the variable resistance due to airspeed was nice but OTOH, I found feeling all the bumps through the stick to be unrealistic, so basically it was a wash on that. And there the other drawbacks mentioned, so all in all a net loss IMHO.
There’s also the question now of whether FFB varying stick forces based on speed would really add much to the experience nowadays. Back in the days of planes being modeled as single points, this was definitely where FFB had its best use. But shortly thereafter, combat sims at least started modeling airflow at various points on the plane, and how these changed with speed, because these pieces could be shot off, so they had to simulate flying without them. And thus control surfaces of even undamaged planes lost effectiveness at lower speeds just from that, and required bigger stick deflections to get the desired results. MSFS does this too, even though you can’t shoot pieces off the planes (yet).
So, with a non-FFB stick, you’re now getting the increased motion, it just feels the same because of the same spring inside. But, if you can adjust the spring tension down, then you don’t realize the force is constant. At low speed, you have big movements against light resistance. At high speeds, the visual cues of rapid responses keep you from noticing there’s light resistance, but you make small moves and your brain is fooled into thinking there’s more resistance. At least for me.
As an aside, I don’t see VR as revolutionary as I’ve been using TrackIR since its inception and don’t see any advantages from VR, plus lots of drawbacks (cost, complexity, discomfort, being vulnerable to roommate pranks, etc.).
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You aren’t getting a true sense of 6 DOF peripheral vision using TrackIR.
You’re simply head tracking inside of a confined pancake box with edges.
You also aren’t experiencing enhanced sense of speed, distance and scale judgment as all 3d objects are positioned and rendered in VR’s native stereoscopic 3D.
VR has been a sim changer, especially when it comes to rotary flight and fixed wing aircraft landing precision.
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Like I said, a lot of wishful thinking. “FFB, VR does not need…” xD
You judge things you don’t really know about.
Sit in a FW190 with 4k VR and an FFB for at least 1 hour in DCS. -So in a program/module where FFB is not unlovingly implemented - …and then join the conversation
Or am I misunderstanding you and you are only referring to MSFS?
I believe that every better 3rd party dev would be happy to implement a suitable FFB model… if only they were allowed to.
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We have totally different expectations! 
That’s okay though. I’m always seeking to involve those extra primitive senses.
I remember simming 25 years ago and being able to feel airspeed and groundspeed. It may not have been accurate on some levels. But I really wish I could combine that with the VR experience offered in MSFS now.
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