Have to agree with the other commenters, VR is most definitely revolutionary. I haven’t played a flat screen game since 2017 when I got my first Oculus Rift CV1. To date, I’ve owned six VR headsets in all.
Trying to fly on my 70 inch 4k TV just feels like I’m watching a Youtube video, there’s no sense of immersion or presence at all
This has been clear from the start.
The Asobo team made it pretty clear from the start they were totally confusing FFB with gimmicky “immersion” stuff like XBOX controller rumble and seat butt kickers rather than something that actually interfaces with the flight dynamics.
True FFB is not about ground rumble and the stick shaking in a stall and the stick kicking about in turbulence. It is about the stick responding in a realistic way to control movements and trim in varying situations.
Sadly,
Sim unstable and unfinished
+
Too many problems on too many areas
(Pc users, xbox users, track ir users, vr users, everyone is having some sort of issue)
+
Stupid loop of: nobody produces ffb hardware, so nobody writes ffb support, so nobody produces ffb hardware
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People excited and happy with badly designed and overpriced hardware like honeycrap (I know, unpopular opinion, take no offence)
Result: Ffb is not a priority
25 years ago we had ffb sticks well made and still working today that costed less then 200$ and you are telling me that ffb tech is not around today because it’s too complex and expensive? Think again.
The patent thing is a myth. They expired years ago so there are no excuses.
Wouldn’t fly WITHOUT my Microsoft FF2 joystick. I bought about 6 of them on Ebay (which is the only place you can find them anymore). I’m prepared for the future. I use the FF software called Forcefeedback 2 from Russell Dirks on P3d, and I use the XForce for MSFS when I fly MSFS. The software keeps getting upgraded and eventually, I feel it will be “spot-on”!
I agree, force feedback in yoke hardware and support in sims would be a big boost to immersion. I am not aware of the legalities, but I think if any company is sitting on the patent it is probably Microsoft since the did produce a force feedback yoke back in the day, and it was supporting in their sim.
So the issue might be they don’t want to play nicely with Logitech.
Just want to say, if you have an audio setup with a subwoofer, that is kind of the poor man’s force feedback. Especially if you are on a wood floor. You can feel slight vibration when you touch down, lift-off, etc.
I dunno. I can bend over, lean to see around obstructing struts, etc., besides simply looking in all directions. Seems like 6DOF to me, and quite like natural head movement. But, TrackIR is simply a dedicated “mouse-look” controller, just being an easier, more intuitive way of moving the game’s regular camera around using its existing mechanics. So what you see is the same as if you weren’t using TrackIR but moving the camera with the mouse and/or hat. What TrackIR does NOT provide is an enhanced 3D effect of your immediate surroundings, which VR gives you with its stereoscopic vision system. But that, as far as I can tell, is the only real difference between the experiences they provide.
So, with TrackIR, you get the same sort of natural head motion directing your view as with VR, within limits. Such as, you can look behind you while only turning your head 30^ or so compared to actually having to turn all the way around. Personally, I see that as a plus but YMMV. TrackIR is also cheaper, more comfortable to wear, and easier to make work because it’s basically using the game’s regular view system rather than its own separate system. With VR, you get an enhanced 3D effect on top of the head motion, but at higher price, less comfort, and more complexity/less reliability. The patch notes have contained a lot about VR issues since VR support was graphed onto MSFS after release.
So, a matter of personal preference. Personally, I’m fine with TrackIR and don’t find the 3D effect of VR, while it is undeniably cool, something I absolutely must have to enjoy my flying. To me, it’s not worth all the downsides that go with VR. So I don’t see VR as “revolutionary”. At least in the context of MSFS. Now, in an FPS, that’s another story.
Back in the day before VR I enjoyed FSX with TrackIR and Nvidia 3D VIsion Kit. Worked really well on my 1440P Monitor. It doesn’t compared to the VR tech we have today though. Being inside of the sim is just a totally different experience. As far as FFB tech and potential pricing/supply & demand I think most of us are just better off building motion rigs.
MSFS was born from HoloLense. It likely would not exist had it not been for VR/AR.
I stated in 2D mode for about a month and my first flight in VR was just so way much easier when it came to the visual aspects of taxing, takeoff and landing. Things I struggled with just became instantly natural.
Now, the only physical bindings I use are primary flight controls with everything else being interactions with the virtual cockpit.
To duplicate that would require a detailed home cockpit build. Which is fine for a GA Cessna 172 or G36, but it gets difficult with multiple airplanes.
But yeah, it does take a top end video card, and at least $300 additional for a headset. So the entry point is tough. Even if Quest/FB/Mets is making good, affordable headsets, it still takes a powerful GPU.
My old Sidewinder FFB was one of the most favorite electronic purchases I had ever made. I’m hard to impress too. About 98% of the time I’m usually disappointed in electronic products.
That may be, but VR was not originally planned for MSFS. There was just so much demand for it that eventually it got grafted onto a game never designed for it some months after release. And hence all the apparent problems VR’s had, if you read the patch notes and VR-related complaints here in the forum. I don’t know personally as I use TrackIR.
Same for me with TrackIR. I should mention that I got TrackIR decades ago when it 1st came out, and originally back in the alpha, MSFS didn’t support it, either. But then one day back in the alpha it just appeared, without anybody really asking for it, and has worked flawlessly from the get-go except for that 1 sim update that very, very marginally broke it, mostly a non-issue really (except in the DC-6).
Even after 20 years most MS FFB2 are still going strong. If you do not fly for a bit the rubber grip gets “tacky” but after an hour or two back in the cockpit the tacky feel goes away again.
I was sceptical about “pre-order” waiting lists, but I joined and after a few months, my turn came around. After a year or so, I still use the fulcrum in preference to a MS FFB2, except for when flying helicopters.
If I could recruit a First Officer, I might try an Airbus, making the FFB2 relevant again, but for flying single-handed it all looks too complicated.
What software have you found best for FFB with MSFS2020? I don’t recall XForce as a name I’ve heard. Did you mean XPForce? I’ve had mixed results with that.
I only have two FFB2 joysticks: can’t see me needing more, because they are so well made.
As a long time FFB user, (20 years plus) I use XP Force of course for MSFS, but I tried FS Realistic on a whim really, but it adds a few FFB sensations too and with the enhanced sounds provided therein, am pleased to say that it has added another layer and for me has been very well worth it. The program is available as a free trial too, so go and give it a whirl. Like me, you might have a bigger smile.
I have used the FSRealistic trial but I don’t think it adds FFB?
So far I have tried Airforce Player and XPForce. Airforce Player is freeware, but does not model trim forces as far as I am aware. XPForce has trim forces and allows more customization, so I am using that. I prefer having ground effects off or at a minimum, but I am struggling to get the trim forces and stall effects (not stick shaker) more noticeable. Anyone have experience with this? Am using an MSFF2.
It can’t do that. It can play audio files based on simulation variables, and it can also manipulate the camera within existing sim constraints.
I am getting additional sensation in the ground roll and landing. It might just be a correlation between the camera shake, but I dont think so.
Well then why don’t they just call Vibration Station or something.
Seriously people copy stuff all the time and get away with it!
I don’t think it has anything to do with the name, rather the function / technology.
Most likely, however when i look around shopping anywhere i see the same thing all over the place that is “patented” being sold a different colour with a slightly different shell and name by opposing companies.
Technology “ideas” shouldn’t be allowed to be patented. The entire copyright industry whilst tried to look out for people just made it worse and people use patents as currency.
IMO, what flight sims really need is neither FFB or VR, but some kind of affordable consumer rumble seat that exist solely for sake of increasing the player’s spatial awareness by giving cues for changes in aircraft attitude and slip (as opposed to being optimized for coolness or realism).
