Careful. The only fact most pilots can agree on is that it is imperative to tell people that they are a pilot.
Wow this thread came around fast from being a broad strokes chat to a laser-focussed question 
My tuppence, and maybe a different angle on it.
While it’s true that a “simulator” (if that is what it’s aiming to do) should be realistic and accurate, we have to realise this is a bit of software that the entry fee is a mere £60 - with FREE UPDATES thrown in (…by one of the worlds largest and richest corporations, I don’t feel TOO bad!) 
On top of that, individuals can CHOOSE to spend more money to alter the experience to what they want, to a large degree. Now, after this, it comes down to the ABILITY the developers of such added options have to actually MAKE the thing they are making as realistic as possible. And the goal posts / scope of this is in constant flux (and trending towards overall improvement).
So in the end it comes down to individuals. Both the “players” and the “creators” to play on the field within those goal posts.
Which, looking a bit further out again comes down to IMAGINATION. Our own imagination to make of this world what we want. Creators imagination to knock down those goal posts and move them further back. Maybe change their shape or colour.
It will happen. It just needs a bit of time! Which in turn comes back to PATIENCE. Something I think the older generation has more of (on the whole). I’m 47 btw
Another thing this whole topic has made me think. I used to play (when I was like 14 years of age, on the Amiga / Atari ST initially then PC for newer versions) was GEOFF CRAMMOND’S GRAND PRIX (Formula One simulator). Key word = “SIMULATOR”. I played them all, original to 4th, and they saw huge leaps of improvements from version to version, but even so in the context of THIS thread they would not pass as simulators to most people here now I think.
But to ME, and my IMAGINATION, they were REAL moments! They were amazing and it felt like I was there, driving, concentrating, losing, winning, learning, improving, committed and passionate about my “craft”. And of course the highly detailed crowd that had come to watch appreciated my effort! You just needed more imagination, that’s all.
It will never be a true flight simulator for £50, or even £5,000, sitting on your office (or “gaming”) chair in your house. Come back with £10 million and a spare large climate controlled and 24/7 security patrolled “shed” if you really want that to “play” at home 
I have headed way over that £5,000 investment just for MSFS threshold now but I know what I’m getting and have no regrets at all. None, this is an amazing experience with some frustrations thrown in but the best community in gaming by a mile and I am so glad to be a part of it! 
Whoa sorry for the long post!! There is no tl;dr though 
5 Likes
As the song goes ‘It’s only make-believe’. Having grown up before TV, that’s all it is to me.
1 Like
I am old…. I see it as a simulator and could not care less what others think…… ( now that is an old baby boomer says….). Younger people are more concerned what others think….
1 Like
You telling me this is not a flight simulator? I guess it cost a small fortune to put together, but not £10 million, and with MSFS graphics probably a whole lot more immersive and realistic than a professional sim that real pilots train on:
(1403) MSFS2020 FDS 737-800 Fully enclosed Home Cockpit Simulator Tour - YouTube
So yes MSFS can be a flight simulator and not simply a game.
I have put together a basic all purpose home cockpit, functional but nothing anywhere near as sophisticated as this, but to me it is definitely a simulator.
I retired from flying many years ago but back then in “real” flight simulators the visuals, if they had them at all, were created with large physical models of four or five airports at most, made with bits of painted cardboard and balsa wood. The flight controls drove a camera over the model and projected it onto the cockpit windscreens. Full motion simulators were the exception rather than the rule in those days. So yes real airline pilots were just “still sitting in a chair and staring at a screen” pretending to be pilots flying real aeroplanes
The purpose of professional flight simulators is procedure training, not scenery gazing or thrill rides, and with the right addons MSFS compares quite well for the price.
3 Likes
So here is the thing. For years and years it was the ‘sit in a chair-stare at a screen’ (on a screen) that defined the home flight simulator experience. MSFS now offers something very meaningfully more than that. IFR is dead! Long live VFR!
But as the younger generation spend pretty much all of their time anyway staring at screens and pushing buttons, does this mean they are more conditioned to expect the IFR experience, or is it the oldsters who grew up with low-res world who are more accustomed to keeping their simulated gaze firmly in the cockpit? Who are the true Children of the Magenta Line?
Personally I used to think flying big tin was the epitome of flight sim. Now I find that although it has its own rewards, for me these pale compared to the joy of VFR. (@Baracus250 You can take this as your que to Wilga-bomb)
Not exactly what I’m saying really. It’s 90+% there but you can’t deny that in some situations things don’t react as they should. There is enough posts about various scenarios that planes don’t react well to. Even some basics are not right yet or functions completely missing (turboprop simulation for example). Probably the last few % are the hardest to implement.
As I say it’s all in flux and improving but at the edges of the envelope some weird things happen. Especially with helicopters. I have had them do some things that reveal just how fragile the “simulation” is and show how it’s just some maths and approximation — (OK, before @AlpineB4652 says the whole world is just maths and quantum physics, I’ll just pre-empt that. Ok so let’s make a quantum physics simulation in the core and everything will slot into place then? We all just need Intel i580000 Gen750 quantum processors first ) — that can freak out if unexpected things happen. It is kind of held together with duct tape and prayers in a lot of places
Unfortunately when this happens, it leaves the impression that everything else can’t truly be believed. Of course the best developers can get around this and do a grand job of masking it to a large extent but even then, by their own admission the tools simply are not there to make everything exact, as the “simulation” is simply not robust or developed enough yet at a core level. I’m sure it will be one day but not yet.
Heck, it’s hard! I’m not saying this to put down the game / sim whatever you wanna call it (gim? same? 
). You all know I love it. Just explaining what I meant.
But look, it IS hard when dealing with aero and fluid dynamics and MAY never really be possible to get everything right, especially that it must work within the Xbox processing power. Even the F1 teams that use simulators to test new aero elements (wings, body sculpting etc) to optimise airflow and downforce and drag coefficient, and vortex control etc still when they “build” the parts that performed best on the sim and in the wind tunnel, when they are on the real cars in the real world and in real racing conditions, the results often don’t match up.
Like last year, HOW did half the teams not discover the porpoising problem with the new ground effect concept underpan of the chassis until they actually hit the track?! Even Mercedes!?
And I’m not referring to graphics / visuals. I know the pro simulators don’t have as good graphics (but they ARE convincingly fluid frame rates) and the F1 teams don’t care about that. They just want the accuracy of physics. Of course this is MSFS’s trump card, which yeah, leads to some stunning moments in VFR!
….Wilma would approve! *
*Other good VFR Aircraft are also available.
Quantum physics suggests rather the same is true of reality!
And the physics can be hard: I shall never forget my aerodynamics professor telling the class ‘Helicopters. Yes, not really sure how they fly’.
I actually don’t think it would take a great deal to get MSFS to the point where it could be used for certified flight training (just in terms of improvement to aircraft behaviour). Asobo have a lot of competing demands on their time. It will get there.
But expect resistance! If the reaction of a number of folk used to flying the old CJ4 with it’s wholly unrealistic autoflight behaviour who now have to actually fly the aircraft to an intercept before hitting the NAV button is any gauge, then there are plenty who can’t stomach even a smidgen more realism than they have grown to expect.
2 Likes
Well,… Let’s see.
One dancing AvAngel for sure and especially when she’s making her Reviews to keep us all informed.
3 Likes
Good point! It’s all amazing we can do anything at all without falling to bits
Sounds like a better angel. Do you have a link you could share?
I’m falling to bits all the time these days.
2 Likes
Another good point
So it’s all true! Entropy… at least it’s local entropy and parts of my body-molecules haven’t ended up at the other side of the universe (I think…)
Oh for an infinite improbability generator and a really good strong cup of tea.
1 Like
2100 bucks. The end of the static chair.
2 Likes
From what I have seen, the actual runway lights tend to be well modeled in professional simulators. But scenery is computer generated I believe.
Reading all the posts I still dont understand why younger simmers are so critical much of the time. Seems to me, reading all the posts most folks are enjoying the Sim and having a good time. So why on earth are some getting so worked up about some things?
But I wonder, is it maybe because the Sim is now so close to being a ‘Simulator’ that those bits where it fails are doubly annoying?
Think I might need something a bit stronger if we had this 
With some mild quantum entanglement, tea can turn into something stronger quite easily
2 Likes
If you were on the Heart of Gold you would be lucky to get a good strong cup of tea! A pangalatic gargleblaster perhaps. But no tea.
1 Like